NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

I wonder if this is what I meant?

Harassment under UK law, as defined by the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 (PHA), is like stalking in that it occurs when a person's behaviour causes distress or alarm to another individual. There are many behaviours that might fall under this act, including offensive or derogatory communication via texts, voicemails, letters, or emails, as well as abusive comments or threats, whether in person or online.…
If found guilty of stalking or harassment offences, the impact will be significant and hugely detrimental. In addition to the risk of a custodial sentence, a restraining order can be imposed on a defendant, whether they are convicted or acquitted, so it’s vital that you seek legal advice at an early stage when harassment or stalking is being alleged.

Yes there's a small public viewing room available but it's 1st come 1st served so if there's too many people you might have a wasted journey.

This is what it is to live in a patriarchy. Upton says, under oath, that he's a biological female with no comeuppance and women can't view the tribunal but we get to have it filtered through a media which has, almost without exception, used 'preferred pronouns' and thus simply cannot be trusted with the truth (most especially the organisations that like to think they are the most morally upright).

The weekly paper for my home town and the surrounding area.

A few comments, none in favour of Upton.

https://www.centralfifetimes.com/news/24924369.trans-doctor-told-nhs-fife-intent-use-womens-changing-room/

Another article from The Central Fife Times.

https://www.centralfifetimes.com/news/24922481.sandie-peggie-tribunal-nhs-fife-didnt-disclose-documents/

To be harassment, some harassing conduct must happen on at least two occasions, and that might explain why Dr Upton was keen to mention the later non-event. Edit, and while it is a civil offence in Scotland I can't find evidence that it is a crime. Will search further!

At the bottom of the 2nd Fife Times article there's a comment from Fife NHS 'at the heart of this are two employees both of whom deserve to be treated with kindness'. If only they'd given themselves this advice at the beginning.

It is always about power and control (and pandering to the male). Just like MW and the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre.

Just leaving this here so that we can all check that we are biological females tomorrow.

Well as a doctor, he’s presumably aware and understands the dangers of cutting your bits off and being left with a gaping hole that continuously tries to heal itself up, the implications of taking female hormones long term together with the medical pathway for life you put yourself on.

so instead it’s ok for him and his community to keep his penis because women can have lady dicks.

No treatment of any kind?? It looks to my (admittedly not medically trained) eye as if he's had a nose job and lip lift surgery. Both in the name of 'facial feminisation'.

In my mind Pete was tall and broad, bald with tattoos - Brian’s more, well, rotund? No matter - he”s in!

Think he was jealous of the time she spent on doing her doctorate rather than looking after him?!

For everyone who is concerned that there will be some journalistic filter of the national press applied to the truth, please do not underplay the sterling work of the full team of Tribunal Tweets with able substitute Dr Michael Forlan.

Adopting a voice which he feels might fool someone to believe he is a female, Theodore is controlling, coercive and manipulative and his overbearing manner was too much for some who have had to switch off the live feed, when it was available.

I fully support Sandie Peggie in holding NHS Fife professionally accountable and selling women down the river. I trust she gets some comfort from the widespread public support for who she is and what she stands, and is standing for. May that never change.

Make docs who dress as their mums, perhaps?

I've dipped into this thread, rather than following all of it.

Can I just double check my understanding ahead of today please:

NHS Fife and Dr U denied that there was any investigation into Sandie Peggie prior to her suspension. It then transpired that there are emails which show that an investigation was started (before being dropped) and which referred to a "hate crime" i.e. they had labelled it as such before even looking into the allegations. Some of the previously missing emails are between Dr U and the BMA. The timeline of who said what to who will be unpicked today with Dr U.... and after an adjournment it will also be unpicked with the NHS witnesses.

Is that correct?

The bit I'm least clear on is where the term "hate crime" started being used - I must have missed the posts where this was outlined.

To add:

My understanding of a hate crime is that in England (and Wales?) there has to actually be a standard crime committed in the first place for this term to apply. In such a circumstance, a court may then consider an extension to a sentence (when someone has been convicted of a crime) because the crime was considered to be motivated by a specific category of "hate". But in and of itself, there is no such thing as a standalone hate crime. However, in Scotland it is different and it's possible to commit a "hate crime" as a standalone incident (but as demonstrated by JKR, saying that a TW is a man is not considered to be a hate crime.... therefore presumably saying that males shouldn't use women's CRs wouldn't be either).

Is that also correct re hate crime law?

Re discussions on hate crime etc - remember Scots law is different from Eng&Wales law. We have our shiny new Hate Crime Act in place.

Cross post, Bonfire.

Yes, the criteria are different in Scotland. Unlikely to result in conviction, due to safeguarding amendments, but there is no criteria for what constitutes a hate crime other than the perception of person reporting.

Who doesn't have to be the alleged victim, either.

Polis are duty bound to investigate any and every report, although in practise I expect they've found ways to get round that.

I won't be able to drop in here much today. Anyone taking a bet in what thread number it will be come 6pm? I am going to go with 15. The lack of on line viewing I think will slow the pace.

@BonfireLady You may find the observations and findings of @RethinkingLife late last night from 22:45 of use. My feeling is that today may be very revealing. The NHS should not be concerned with ideology and the delusions of clearly mentally unwell people, but moreover on provable and demonstrable medical facts and the safeguarding of all employees.

They chose to employ a smarmy bloke who thinks he is a woman because he says so, and then made no provision for him, allowing him to impose his male presence on the female estate within the hospital.

All power to SP, who should be supported by all colleagues in any neutral environment where people are not intimidated or in fear of losing their jobs, being labelled "transphobic" for not accepting males who say they are females.

It must be so frustrating for NC if she's got all this evidence to work through, but is bogged down with disagreements on terminology every time she asks a question.

The Scottish Hate Crime law that came into action on April 1st 2024, did it allow for the ability to report past 'hate crimes'? Does anyone know?