NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

Yes , because all medical professionals know that. It's a basic rule of care. He would be on very sticky ground if he started talking about forcing care on a patient who had declined.

He treated her request for same sex care as consent to him offering that care unless she then refused at the point of service, so to speak.

But her said her refusal would to him be evidence of her having an issue with his being trans and compared it to treating a racist patient.

Didn't he say if a patient behaved the same as Sandie he would take it as harassment or aggression? I can't remember which.

Yes he has admitted that, under cross examination today.

@NotAGentleReminder

I agree that grooming is involved, but I understand grooming to be the development of the trusting relationship so that, after such trust is developed, those acts can take place.

I’m talking here about the single intimate examination with an unconsenting adult. No long-term manipulation of trust beforehand at all.

It’s that. For those few minutes.

(And yes, of course I can imagine what is going on in his mind. And maybe he is giving enough clues about that to the average person after NC’s questions 🤞)

NC handled that so well. Something like - I'll use the terms which suit my client's case best and you use your terms. Then she defined them and suddenly she didn't have to get tied up in the terminology any more. He inadvertently left a loophole where she could use the terms woman/female and man/male just as typical people would. He hated it

Edited to say - that last week I made such an effort to be neutral with my pronouns and language. But as he shows such a blatant disregard for me and my values/dignity/safety/comfort then I can't be bothered to be polite now.

Didn't he say if a patient behaved the same as Sandie he would take it as harassment or aggression? I can't remember which.

I think "aggressively confrontational" or similar.

I've read/skimmed nearly 12,000 posts I this and i think I'm going to have to bow out - at least one solid hour was likely spent scrolling past "placemarking" (note - you can just click 'watch thread' then go to 'threads I'm watching' and it won't fill up the thread) or 'wftchtj' audio/video type posts...

I'm not complaining but it's reached the threshold where I just don't have the time to filter to the legally relevant posts.

I'm so cross that the rest of it will be behind closed doors, as it were. However, in all the previous tribunals I've followed, i got fed up on the minutiae of dates/ meeting attendees/annual leave and longed for them to answer direct questions about their nonsensical beliefs about sex.

Turns out, when this does happen, I get fed up of the rather tedious predictable lies, and just want to get onto the minutiae of the emails
However, I'm glad the blatant dishonesty is out there for all to see.

Maybe I'll try and skim at the end of the week and just catch up on TT. The live commentary here has really helped though.

Plenty of cases of male doctors performing unnecessary intimate examinations. It's a thing.

I must have missed that last bit. Perhaps it's in tribunal tweets I'll take a look.

Name changing out of paranoia, but just flagging that I have today raised a GMC concern in relation to DrU's evidence of how he would approach a female patient who has requested same sex care. The rest is indoctrination and nuttery, but that fundamentally breaches Dr/patient trust, and is so far from okay that it leaves me feeling quite sick. I will report back on any response!

I must have missed that last bit. Perhaps it's in tribunal tweets I'll take a look.

He did say it. It's a classic TRA gotcha and he used it as such.

These threads are moving so quickly, so worth posting again. Well spotted!
I've cut and pasted what she says from the link you posted.

Lang Cleg
7 hours ago

Reply to A J
At the time of the events described, he was on a psychiatric rotation as well. And he stated that were a distressed woman in mental health crisis to question his sex (thus delegitmising his “gender”) he would mark her down as aggressive in his notes. This little word indicates that the NHS can then refuse care.
He should be in a fitness to practice hearing, not giving evidence in an employment tribunal excusing his behaviour towards a nurse of thirty years standing

Yes. Maybe I shouldn't have brought up the 'grooming' word. I just zoomed in on the CSA bit of your post. It's not the same thing here. Although one could argue there is an established trust that vulnerable sick patients have in the doctors providing their emergency care. Even if there is no previous patient-doctor relationship between an individual patient and an individual doctor, in general doctors hold a position of trust and a responsibility towards their patients to respect this and not abuse it.

Sandie was unfortunately sexually assaulted by a male doctor wasn't she when she was young on the pretence of a breast examination? (Have I got that right? Sandie's evidence seems a long time ago now).

That's part of the reason she doesn't want to be alone with a man in the changing room, any man, whilst she's in a state of undress.

But DU claims he's not a man, (and even if he was he's not that type of man)

And here's NC pointing out to all that there's he's male doctor admitting he'd intimately touch a female patient, using deception whilst they're in a state of undress. Making him exactly that type of man.

Blghhh.

Michael Foran on Twitter has the bit about the investigation:
https://x.com/michaelpforan/status/1889285216474149065?t=L-0Lj-afJnJxdJYAYUhdEw&s=19

NC new page we see header lines of email from jan 3 - draft of formal complaint sent to BMA
DU yes
NC new page we see date on ED email to you she's saying to commence investigation would be good to have initial incident at Xmas

NC she knows something else you want to talk about but chasing you of account from Xmas eve
DU yes
NC clear at this point that she's conducting investigation
DU can't speak to that
NC clear to you she was investigation
DU clear yo me that she was asking for statement

NC but read the email
DU oh yes she does say she is investigating - I missed this, apologies
NC so when your counsel told the Tribunal last week that ED was NOT investigator that wasn't right was it? whoever gave her those instructions wasn't telling the truth

DU I can't speak to that but looks like it
NC so ED has been chasing you on Jan 15 for account of what happened on Xmas eve - [sorting documents]

I had 3 breast exams when early pregnant back in 1990, one when booking in atr Ealing Hospital, one when being admitted for a missed m/c at 20 wks and one 2 weeks later when followed up. I only found out that they were TUBE's when I got my notes as I'd suffered a futher m/c and then LATER ON found out what TUBE stood for when discussing a failiure of care with an Independant Midwife during a debrief/going over of my notes! Sorry to derail, but this lack of informed consent is over sex based HCP's is the same shit different decade,

Is there any indication that it is people from FWR/MN?
Akin to others, I dislike condemnation or guilt by association but I don't see any reason to think it's posters from here who've posted those comments.

Bunbury would remind us that FWR has been the target of people posting outrageous comments themselves in order to then highlight them on other platforms and denounce MN.

Without evidence, I'd not accept any indication that it's FWR regulars etc.

And, in other news, I'm delighted to see Alex Bell's memory is now enhanced to £10,871.25 to the benefit of the chosen organisation.

Yes he said that if a patient reacted to him like SP did, he would report the incident as the patient having been {I forget what exactly what} but the point was it sounded like it would be a patient who might end up out on the street due to their aggressive behaviour.
He also said, separately, that he had never been spoken to in that way before. Which makes me wonder about how little experience of life he has actually had.

Sandie Peggie is not going to lose this case. Everything that's happened in the last few days has made it vanishingly unlikely. Remember this is an employment tribunal. Peggie has brought the charge with Fife NHS the main respondent. Upton is the second respondent. Upton's testimony has made it abundantly clear that he's a bully who uses spurious fears and hurt feelings to get his way. His lies and exaggerations have been exposed.

In the last few days Fife NHS has revealed itself to be either corrupt or incompetent: it's already clear that it lacked appropriate policy, it failed to manage Upton properly and it's very likely that management were terrified of him and so offered Peggie up as a human sacrifice. They've already been caught trying to hide evidence of an earlier investigation which presumably came to the 'wrong' conclusion. Who knows what else will be exposed in the coming days? I don't think there's any way, from the current situation, that Fife can win. I also suspect that Upton may have his license to practice medicine revoked.

Thanks @nauticant for the continual threads. I've had to skim through today's but have the gist.

Well done @Liverstreaming . So good and interested to see the reply when it comes.

How about Emma Thompson for NC?
And Grayson Perry for DU?

Can confirm, sadly first hand from work experience before applying to medical school and then hearing several instances of male medical doctors laughing about doing a 'TUBE' (totally unnecessary breast examination). To my shame, being very immature and having not even recognised a shedload of internalised misogyny let alone shaken it off, I used to just laugh nervously on hearing stuff like this. I didn't report my own experience until a few years ago and it was a bit late by then, nothing came of it.

The thing is we tend to trust doctors, as a discipline, and as individuals. So we see a doctor usually starting from the point that they are a safe person. So the societal values we place on the title Doctor has already done the grooming for doctors who wish to take advantage of a one off encounter.

It’s a ‘false pretences’ thing, isn’t it?

Sorry not RTFT (not in the spirit but a bit short on time tonight) but has anyone answered the question of what Upton would do if it was, for example, a Muslim woman in a semi-conscious state and her relatives had said she wanted single sex care? Would he provide it? Absent the patient saying 'no'? Or would he claim to be the same sex (which seems to be his batshit position) and just go ahead?

I've been in hospital next to an elderly woman who only wanted a woman to provide intimate care. She didn't speak English, her daughter was translating. Heard it all because only a flimsy curtain, but the daughter wasn't there 100% of the time, so relying on the staff honouring the clearly stated request.. Horrific to think Upton might impose himself on her in that same situation. The HCPs did honour her request in whilst I was there - but she did have to wait longer. This was explained and the daughter said it was very important so they would wait for a female HCP.

He also said that SP appeared calm and didn't raise her voice, which actually backed up what she had said. So I presume it was the content of what she said, and the fact that she dared say anything at all, that was so shocking to him. I imagine that his family and friends tread on eggshells around him in order not to set him off.