NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

I'm so sorry you went through this.

I agree with all of you about it being shocking that he would treat a patient who had asked for a female doctor. I can foresee a situation where someone asked for a female doctor, then got a doctor who had such looks that you weren’t sure if they were a masculine woman or a man. So you could be debating asking, very unwell, and worrying about upsetting someone (male or female) by asking, when your request should have been taken seriously in the first instance. You take what doctors are saying on trust, this massively undermines that trust imo.

This would be genuine justice. Isn't it sad (and incredibly angersome) that there's room for doubt? I hope your prediction proves entirely correct, and Sandie winning is a very high profile precursor to sanity returning.

How about Emma Thompson for NC?

Emma Thompson's a Be Kind trans ally. Naomi Cunningham deserves better than that.

Holy fuck, there's an acronym?

As a patient, you are vulnerable, and easily bamboozled, and can scarcely believe that a doctor would cross that line.

But they do.

Jesus, women put up with this shit ALL OUR FUCKING LIVES.

Am I dead? Thought all this couldn't be real.

Thank you all for your brilliant reporting and commentary, btw.

Pity Michael Sheen is too old - he’s a ringer for the DU if he had thinner, longer hair.

@Swashbuckled are you thinking of the gymnasts? They were assaulted under the guise of stretching or physio, I think.

Sorry for the stupid question, but what is TUBE in this context? (I googled it and got YouTube "How to do a breast examination"![
On your main point about unnecessary examinations by male medical staff - yes, I've experienced that myself. Definitely a thing.

TUBE was definitely around when I was training in the 90s but I think (hope) dying out with the onset of chaperones and more women in medicine.

I personally won't do any form of intimate exam, on either sex, without a chaperone present even if the patient says they don't mind.

However I find I have to remind male doctors that just because they are examining another male, they still need the chaperone.

Totally Unnecessary Breast Examination

@theOddballs how did you realise they were TUBES? I’m sorry, I’m just trying to understand what happened. It’s appalling that at a time of such vulnerability he took the opportunity.

Opportunism seems to be the underlying weakness of these men. They just can’t resist an opportunity. Fuckers.

Yeah, but not so much meaning "breast exam to ogle someone" but "totally unnecessary exam for woman who is over-anxious about her health". Used to go on routine referrals for non-suspicious breast lumps. Has an overtone of "don't blame me for sending this waste of time case, the patient insisted. Shrilly." Still misogynistic, just for a different reason.

https://www.survivinginscrubs.co.uk/about/

female doctors can’t even trust male doctors

Presumably because there is rarely a reason to do a breast exam unless a woman has presented saying 'there is a problem with my breasts'.

Maybe it became appropriated at some stage by male doctors who just wanted to convince an attractive young female patient that she needed a breast examination when she didn't so they could have a good feel of her breasts. I heard stories of this at medical school, in the context of one man saying to another 'TUBE needs doing in cubicle 4' so he could have a feel. I used to hope it was all made up bollocks by young men being obnoxious and chatting shit.

@Swashbuckled Your posts about a fleeting memory of something intimate and unasked for by a woman who cannot give consent etc. resonated with me. I also (due to your post) felt a memory of seeing something similar in a film. I've been trying to remember for the last while and the film I now remember is "Talk to Her" by Pedro Almodovar. I don't know if you have seen it, but it is superb (to me anyway).

The protagonist was a nurse/aide who gave intimate care to a woman in a coma and made her pregnant. It's not that I am comparing this with anything mentioned on the thread, it's just that the texture of that film stayed with me for a long time afterwards and made me think of your post.

Amanda Abbington for NC? I think she's GC although I think she also backtracked some GC statements due to backlash in the past. She'd be great in the role though.

To be fair, that would be a criminal assault if proven nowadays, and also result in a referral to the GMC.

I am reliably assured it used to be entirely normal practice to do vaginal exams "for practice" on female patients under GA for any reason, without consent and without any discussion. Truly, what doctors will get up to because they think they're right is terrifying.

I think Fiona Shaw for NC…

Yes I wanted that to be asked too - not to criticise Naomi Cunningham, as she's fantastic, but I did wonder why, when Pete the Plumber was getting so much interest, the question of a religious Muslim or Orthodox Jewish nurse might not have been worth exploring too. In the hierarchy of intersectionalism, they trump mere white Scottish women like Sandie Peggie.

I was 19, there was no reason to examine my breasts at that time. The acronysm was on my notes, which I'd requested as we were having fertility issues, I has no idea what it meant. Still didn't until my IM went through my previous pg notes, a few years later.

This would be genuine justice. Isn't it sad (and incredibly angersome) that there's room for doubt? I hope your prediction proves entirely correct, and Sandie winning is a very high profile precursor to sanity returning.

There's always room for doubt in everything. Probably best to try and get over the desire for certainty!

But I have less doubt about this case, watching it unfold, that any previous ET. Some of us have been fighting this for 15 years and more. We've followed previous ETs which have been far more nuanced. Here we have a clearly mad or bad respondent (Upton) and a management that, even before they've been cross-examined, have been caught trying to conceal evidence and whose counsel appears to have supported (to some extent, with Upton) that concealment.

This case has the potential to be like a Buy-one-get-one-free?

It is ostensibly about changing rooms - but because he is an NHS Dr and in a position of responsibility with a professional regulator it has a much longer reach than whether we see each other in our undies. Penny dropping here... sorry if you were all there already