NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

How do this nebulous group of people that some people might call women identify trans folkx in order to be big mean nasty terfy transphobes to them, what with sex not actually being a thing that even a qualified Dr can recognise?

People must be being horribly transphobic to people DrU wouldn't call men or women all the time in order to occasionally stumble across an actual trans person what with nobody being able to tell anyone's sex and therefore whether they are trans or not. DrU is so unlucky that of all the completely un-sexable people in the world SP randomly decided to target DrU, who it turns out is actually trans despite never telling SP.

I doubt it but there's always names to play with

There’s a comment from an alleged midwife maintaining she’s an ally. Dear God.

Well, I might be going too far here, but I’m only trying to reach down for this memory of something I can’t quite recall.

There have been cases of children who have been manipulated into CSA. The perpetrator dresses up as Father Christmas, for example, and gives them special cuddles.

I’m not sure that’s what it is, but it’s something like that (the thing I can’t recall). Maybe it’s something from a film though too; not sure. But the deception, and the consenting other not consenting to what is actually happening (only to what they think is happening) is the thing.

I'm a way behind here catching up, but does anyone remember Haddock trying to blag free stuff some years ago?

What on earth is going on in his mind during such encounters?

I think you're back to 1984 again:

There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always—do not forget this, Winston—always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever.

Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.

"Regardless of whether this will substantiate the claim that an initial investigation was launched, Russell had said in open court that this categorically did not happen. If Peggie’s lawyers can establish that it did, the consequences would be serious for management at NHS Fife, suggesting that the initial investigation was either improperly conducted or that it was likely to conclude that Peggie should not have been suspended in the first place."

From the Michael Foran article in Unherd. But BU has already conceded that the emails show clearly that that investigation was begun and aborted, correct?

I'd get banned if I wrote my guess

That's called grooming.

The fox basher is off on one again. Supposedly it's all Hilary Cass' fault somehow.

I think targeting the fundraiser with sarcastic, insulting or pointed comments is a very bad idea.

It doesn't help the case. It could cause immense problems for SP returning to work after the case. And it might provoke retaliation on SP's family memorial page.

Because the system of two sexes which the rest of us are using, the rules of which make people think he's male, is a flawed system, because it's only used by people who don't really understand sex.

He understands it which is how he knows he's female.

The rest of us are using a flawed system which is why we think he's male.

🥵 I hope she's still able to sleep tonight

Strong agree. Please don't. We can be better.

I had a thought about what character it might be. Daren't say though.

How, and to what end?

It's not part of the case because it's not relevant.

There are no routes to obtaining a GRC without meeting thr (frankly, pathetic) requirements apart from perhaps a fraudulent route. And a fake GRC would be utterly pointless - its only purpose is to change your birth certificate, and for that it would need to be an official one that exists within the system. A fake bit of paper does nothing at all.

His position is completely inconsistent.

How can it be that in the context of being an A & E doctor if a woman, upon realising he is in fact male (even if she had requested only a female), says she doesn't want to be treated by him, this is acceptable and not transphobic, but if a colleague says the equivalent in the context of work changing rooms being single sex it is transphobia and he feels threatened and feels such fear that he has to be escorted to his car?

NC played a blinder with this line of questioning today.

Oh bless DrU is 'deeply hurt' at being misgendered. I bet SP is 'deeply hurt' at being made to share the female CR with a male so that one all, tick it off on your Pools coupon as a draw.
Why when it's 51% of the populations hurt against 0.5% of the populations hurt so the 0.5 always get given the win?

A character who also worked in psychiatry perhaps?

He said a woman refusing intimate care from him was transphobic.

@NotAGentleReminder

Well, I might be going too far here, but I’m only trying to reach down for this memory of something I can’t quite recall.

There have been cases of children who have been manipulated into CSA. The perpetrator dresses up as Father Christmas, for example, and gives them special cuddles.

I’m not sure that’s what it is, but it’s something like that (the thing I can’t recall). Maybe it’s something from a film though too; not sure. But the deception, and the consenting other not consenting to what is actually happening (only to what they think is happening) is the thing.

I don't think he did say that, he said it was her right to say no for any reason.

Agree, though I suspect most on here would resent paying the necessary pound when it could go to a good cause.

Edited to add after he has assumed that she would accept him as a female so would not respect her wishes in the first place.

Too bloody right! He's not getting even a £1 from me!