Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #9

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 12:57

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 10/02/2025 13:43

Thanks again everyone Brew Cake

Boiledbeetle · 10/02/2025 13:44

THE FOUR MAGIC WORDS

“I am a woman!”
He pronounces to all.
And in that moment
the predator becomes prey.

The oppressor the oppressed.
Means that the man
holds all the aces.
Women only: now entered.

The women fall silent.
The man just gloats
at the glorious intrusion,
into female only places.

Rape group? Free entry.
Toilets? Come on in.
Prisons? Take your pick!
Changing room? There too.

These ‘women’ are men.
“Known since aged four.”
Says the autogynephilic man.
That is not true.

Do not dare retort,
or even make waves.
If you say “NO!”
Then: hate crime report.

“I will bloody huff,
and puff! Your life?
Blown up into chaos!”
Wolf in grannie’s dress!

The men now rule,
though, was ever so.
But this is now.
Two thousand twenty five.

This is not right.
We women must fight,
to keep men out
of all our spaces.

Men cannot just demand
things so not true.
We do not consent.
We will not relent

on these four words.
For they are ours,
and our words alone.
They belong to us,

not to a man.
Man has no right
to utter those words.
Only we can say:

“I AM A WOMAN”

RethinkingLife · 10/02/2025 13:44

Quick reminder about Solzhenitsyn's Live not by lies.

https://honestyculture.com/alexander-solzhenitsyn-live-not-by-lies/

Some discussion in this thread that also has Lifton, Havel's greengrocer and other favourites: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?

myplace · 10/02/2025 13:44

I’m rage eating orange matchmakers.

AlexandraLeaving · 10/02/2025 13:45

Plopping in to say thank you to everyone for keeping these threads going. I’m only up to page 8 of thread 8 so far and need to finish my lunch break and come back to it after work but thank you so much for filling in what is going on for those of us who are not able to watch it live. Such an important case. And mind-blowing arrogance (at least at page 8, thread 8, it might all fall apart in the chapters I’ve not yet read…)

Signalbox · 10/02/2025 13:45

myplace · 10/02/2025 13:44

I’m rage eating orange matchmakers.

God, now I so want orange matchmakers!

nauticant · 10/02/2025 13:45

myplace · 10/02/2025 13:17

I tried but couldn’t manage it.
I did laptop, observer, got a grey screen with a chat box down the side.

Any tips I missed?

Did you try to log in for Video and Audio? Some people have got in that way when Observer wouldn't work. If you do V&A it's best to disable your camera.

OP posts:
cascade31 · 10/02/2025 13:46

I am getting the feeling that whoever allowed him to enter the changing rooms. (i know he was already using them) He bullied and manipulated to get that permission. Seems strange that all the people he went to were female. I get the impression he manipulates all the women around him, to get what he wanted. I wonder if they were all scared to. Fearing that they would lose their jobs if they didn't go along with it.

oldwomanwhoruns · 10/02/2025 13:46

He's lying when he said that he was 'instructed to use the women's CR' though, isn't he? He used it for a while with no permission, and only asked for permission later.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 10/02/2025 13:47

myplace · 10/02/2025 13:44

I’m rage eating orange matchmakers.

I've just rage eaten a fried egg sandwich but didn't appreciate it properly.

eatfigs · 10/02/2025 13:47

This doctor rejecting the reality of sex because of his trans beliefs is like biology degree students rejecting evolution because of their religious beliefs.

(Which does happen according to a friend who went and studied it. In fact it was specifically called out in a lecture by their course tutor that "God did it" type answers wouldn't be accepted in an exam answer!)

UrsulasHerbBag · 10/02/2025 13:48

I’m exhausted. It’s so tense and fraught. I keep seeing that picture of DU holding his wife’s hand and thinking I’m supposed to stretch my incredulity so far as to acknowledge they are in a same sex marriage. Which one of them will be carrying the babies and how will little biological babies get in which of their uterus? Turkey baster or the more old fashioned shenis?

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 10/02/2025 13:48

I've just come across this account summarising the morning session - I'm assuming they've summarised other sessions. It looks accurate but caveat in that I've been busy elsewhere this morning so can't verify that fully.

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1888938860572201273?s=46

"Day 6 Morning Session – Dr Upton Admits Knowing Peggie Was Uncomfortable, But Carried On Anyway

Dr Upton faced intense cross-examination this morning, revealing a complete disregard for Sandy Peggie’s discomfort. Despite knowing that Peggie was uncomfortable sharing a changing room with a male, Upton continued using it anyway, insisting that her reaction was likely transphobic rather than a simple expectation of privacy.

When pressed on whether self-ID could allow any man into a female changing space, Upton struggled to justify the logic. Naomi Cunningham used the example of "Pete," a hypothetical male claiming to be a woman. Upton admitted that sincerity would be difficult to judge and that women in the changing room would have no way of knowing whether someone was genuine. Even so, Upton maintained that exclusion would be unfair, arguing that trans women should be allowed in female spaces regardless. In other words, women are expected to simply trust that any male in their space is there in good faith.

Upton also acknowledged that men commit violent and sexual crimes at a higher rate but resisted the idea that single-sex spaces exist for privacy and safeguarding rather than because all men are dangerous. Cunningham pointed out that maintaining female-only spaces does not imply that all men are predators, just as excluding trans women from them does not mean all trans women are threats. Still, Upton insisted that keeping trans women out of female-only spaces suggests a belief that a significant proportion of them are predators, an argument that completely dismisses the reality that these spaces are segregated on the basis of sex, not personal intent.

Perhaps most damning was Upton’s admission that they knew Peggie was uncomfortable yet continued using the space anyway. Tribunal evidence showed that Upton had previously sent messages noting that Peggie had left the room when they entered. When asked directly, Upton admitted they had inferred that she did not want to share a space with them. Rather than acknowledge the obvious—that a woman did not want to undress in front of a male—Upton assumed Peggie’s discomfort was based on hostility toward their trans status rather than a simple expectation of privacy. Cunningham pressed further, asking whether, despite knowing Peggie was uncomfortable, Upton had continued using the female changing room anyway. Upton’s response was a straightforward "yes."

This morning’s session made it abundantly clear that Upton had no formal permission to use the female changing room. They knew at least one female colleague was uncomfortable but dismissed her concerns as prejudice. And yet, it was Peggie who was suspended, not Upton. NHS Fife backed the male in the female changing room, not the woman who asked for privacy. The tribunal will continue this afternoon, but one thing is already clear—this case is exposing the disturbing priorities of an institution that should be safeguarding women, not punishing them for speaking up."

Drfosters · 10/02/2025 13:49

So if he is a ‘biological woman’ and he would feel uncomfortable in the men’s changing room surely he would object vociferously if plumber Pete or a trans man were to walk in because they are the people for whom make him uncomfortable in the men’s changing room. Am I reading that right?

ThreeWordHarpy · 10/02/2025 13:49

Waitwhat23 · 10/02/2025 13:42

Dennis Noel Kavanagh has commented the following on Twitter -

'The number of objections is unusual, I remark that treating evidence like a three way conversation can give the impression of not having confidence in one own's witness or feeling an urgent need to insulate them from legitimate scrutiny.'

Haven't seen anything specific mentioned about the needling.

Thanks. Doing her job and protecting her client from themselves then.

For any FWR regulars, DrU’s answers read like the checklist of TRA talking points. It’s amusing when someone like India comes out with this stuff, but an actual qualified doctor under oath is a different, mind blowing, level.

NC’s job therefore is to get the panel up that mountain asap with as many “wait - what?!” as she can get in.

lcakethereforeIam · 10/02/2025 13:50

If his support crew have to remind him to behave/look more womanly/less manly over the break I wonder if any of them will think to themselves 'hang on a mo?'. If the fragrant DU was actually a woman they wouldn't need to do that, it would never occur to them that they might have to. Ditto any 'you go girling' that might have gone on over the weekend.

He's worked in a&e. I suggested in a previous thread that he be asked what would he do if Pete came in claiming to be in labour.

Peregrina · 10/02/2025 13:50

"The danger is that the Judge and panel only see DU as a deluded man with 'issues' that they should feel sorry for."

But that shouldn't harm Mrs Peggie's case, because her objection was to a man in the changing room. Not because he was trans.

CarefulN0w · 10/02/2025 13:50

Blimey. In other news, Dawn Butler - yes that Dawn Butler - has a 10 minute bill tomorrow about Nurse being a protected title, (Currently only registered nurse is protected). Am very pleased to see this, seeing as it's so important in healthcare that people don't lie to patients and the public about who they are.

SameyMcNameChange · 10/02/2025 13:51

The questioning of Kate Searle is going to be VERY interesting. Because while it is possible for DU to say 'I am a woman because I believe that if you have a woman gender identity then you are a woman, and I have a woman gender identity', that is not possible for a 3rd person to say with certainty.

On DU's definition, the only relevant fact about whether someone is a woman or not is what they themselves say.

And humans lie.

So either 'no-one ever lies about gender identity' (which is odd because people lie about eveything else) or you have to admit the possibility that some people may lie about their gender identity.

So therefore no third person can ever be certain what gender anyone else is??

And when you prfess to think that gender = sex, then than becomes unworkable as a society.

Also - if Kate Searle or Dr Upton were presented with an adult, in A&E, whose genitalia were unambigous and had been observed, what sex marker references would they use for that persons tests? And would that change if they declared a gender identity of the opposite sex?

StellaAndCrow · 10/02/2025 13:52

He's very clever (or thinks he is) with his legal arguments, philosophical asides and getting in all the TRA points.

I'm surprised he hasn't tried harder to think or sound like a woman, I mean in terms of a woman's point of view, even on the basics, like how a woman would feel about a man coming into the changing room, or NCs question about risk assessment when walking home alone - he couldn't even pretend to express that women would find this threatening, never mind that he would.

When asked about a "manly man" coming into the women's changing room, he was clearly thinking from
a) the point of view of that man
b) a purely theoretical point of view (and then going off into nebulous GI arguments)

He clearly never thought "as a woman" or even tried to put himself in the women's shoes.

This morning has been a stark clarification for me as to how very unlike a woman he thinks. And what he thinks of women.

My partner is a (manly!) man - he would immediately see what the issues are for women.

I think this is why many of us would rather encounter a regular man than an trans-identified man in any space.

myplace · 10/02/2025 13:52

There was a bit of ‘I don’t understand the question’ and ‘It depends’ involved as well.

Oh, and DrU was adamant that no medical or surgical or pharmaceutical steps or indeed a GRC were necessary.

He avoided declaring he had had no treatment of any kind. But that was clear. None is necessary.

He is not a cis man, he’s a biological woman.

CerealPosterHere · 10/02/2025 13:52

Wow. He says he's biologically female because he's biological and not a robot. And sex is assigned at birth based on medical professionals' best guess.

im a midwife, i wouldn’t say ive ever guessed when stating if a baby is male or female. Once it was unclear but even then I didn’t guess, bloods were taken for chromosome testing. It’s all pretty scientific and unambiguous from where I am!

StellaAndCrow · 10/02/2025 13:53

Peregrina · 10/02/2025 13:50

"The danger is that the Judge and panel only see DU as a deluded man with 'issues' that they should feel sorry for."

But that shouldn't harm Mrs Peggie's case, because her objection was to a man in the changing room. Not because he was trans.

Yes, if we don't want men in our changing rooms, we definitely don't want deluded men!

ickky · 10/02/2025 13:54

I feel sick now. Just polished off the last of the chocolate Panettone from Christmas.

Now have to wait 10 months til I can stuff it in my face eat it again. <sigh>

StellaAndCrow · 10/02/2025 13:55

myplace · 10/02/2025 13:52

There was a bit of ‘I don’t understand the question’ and ‘It depends’ involved as well.

Oh, and DrU was adamant that no medical or surgical or pharmaceutical steps or indeed a GRC were necessary.

He avoided declaring he had had no treatment of any kind. But that was clear. None is necessary.

He is not a cis man, he’s a biological woman.

Yes, that was good, as it enabled NC to get agreement from him that a TW needs no medical treatment/surgical treatment or particular presentation in order to be a TW and therefore to be allowed to in women's single sex spaces.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.