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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

1000 replies

nauticant · 08/02/2025 15:40

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

OP posts:
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37
Enough4me · 08/02/2025 23:04

Donated to the charity and hope the media pick up what is happening as a sign of support for Sandie.

Ariana12 · 08/02/2025 23:08

KnottyAuty · 08/02/2025 15:55

In honour of thread 7 here’s some homework I thought I better do before Tribunal Week 2 now that they have stopped discussing feelings and are getting on to actual useful legal stuff.

Hopefully I have got this summary right - this is the basis of the legal claim by Sandie Pegg (SP) to the Employment Tribunal:

SP (claimant) is the one who has brought the case to the Employment Tribunal (ET) – naming NHS Fife as Respondent 1 (R1) and Dr Upton as Respondent 2 (R2).

She claims against Dr U personally

  • Harassment under EA for being a biological male in the female only CR
  • Whistleblowing – her challenge to Dr U in the CR was a “protected disclosure” that led to “detriments” – Dr U punishing her via formal complaints of bullying and harassment etc.

She claims against NHS Fife:

  • Harassment under the EA regarding “protected beliefs” – citing a list of 12 timeline events:
  • The 3 encounters with Dr U in the CR between Aug & Dec 2023
  • Being put on special leave from 30/12/23
  • Being suspended on 4/1/24
  • Beginning a disciplinary investigation based on Dr U’s complaint
  • Continuing SP’s suspension on 2/2/24
  • Sought to persuade SP to return to work not at Vic Hospital 7/3/24
  • Refused to guarantee SP access to a female only CR 7/3/24
  • Extending SP’s suspension pending agreement on shifts 7/3/24
  • Requiring SP return to work on day shifts in order to be supervised (due to Dr U’s allegations on concern about patient care) 7/3/24
  • Informing SP of an allegation and investigation about patient care 28/3/24
  • Failing to progress the disciplinary investigation promptly
  • Prohibiting SP from discussing these legal matters/issues at work.
  • Harassment under EA as in 2a for letting Dr U use the female CR and permitting other staff to use a CR that aligns with their gender identity
  • Victimisation (which I think is the indirect harassment bit?) similar to 3a but with 3 additional “detriments” including being informed of alleged bullying and unwanted behaviours to a colleague, as well as being asked to work day shifts in place of nights.
  • Whistleblowing complaint with similar detriments as the victimisation claim in 3c

The NHS/Dr U team have responded to accept that the events listed in the claim happened but the don’t accept the claims of harassment and say that they only allow staff to use CRs based on their gender identity on a case-by-case basis (ie my words: not just any old Tom Dick or Harry can march into the ladies)

The NHS/Dr U allege it was SP who behaved inappropriately and that what she said was not a “protected disclosure” or a “protected act” so the subsequent events were not “detriments” to her (again my words – under the law she wouldn’t qualify for protection against victimisation or whistleblowing)

The NHS/Dr U confirmed that they would not rely on the “all reasonable steps” defence under the EA regarding Dr U’s conduct – saying this claim is vexatious and should not be pursued.

(Sorry the MN text editor has removed my original numbering so there will be some odd references which you can hopefully infer)

Edited

Thanks. Brill summary! Plot twist on Friday that led to early adjournment. Not sure I've got it right. But evidently Fife started 2 disciplinary investigations v Sandie. One was because Upton was upset and the other one was again on his say so and I think he has been alleging that she was unfit to practice. Turns out they've failed to make the relevant disclosure of relevant material including around why they abandoned one process and started another- even though there was a tribunal order for disclosure of relevant documents. So it seems a) they accepted everything he said and suspended her b) the whole thing then got ratcheted up into a smear about her professionalism and c) they tried to hide all this from her legal rep and the tribunal. All on public funds.

Lunde · 08/02/2025 23:26

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 22:21

This?

Bur Mr Collins was waving at Charlotte who was several metres away supervising the loading of luggage. What Du describes is doing a little wave directly at someone only standing a bit further away than Elizabeth Bennet - and as DU is taller it probably came across as a provocative or a passive aggressive action and she chose to ignore it but apparently that was wrong as well.

unmemorableusername · 08/02/2025 23:33

I bet he gets a woman to wax him.

No way he's doing his own 'self care' 🤮

YourWiseBee · 08/02/2025 23:42

Bannedontherun · 08/02/2025 22:42

Just waded through everything i missed on Friday thanks must go to inky etc for posting links to tribunal twitters, and commentators.

Anyway, i think someone else on the last thread mentioned this in passing.

It is looking to me like DU may have been egged on with all this nonsense by seniors (those who gave him the swipe card to the female changing rooms) and it is they who picked up the complaint, which appears was reframed in the second investigation.

It seems to me if i am reading things correctly that the only way out for DU is to blame the higher uppers for something that snowballed “beyond his control”

After all when at the hearing asked to describe the Xmas incident in the changing rooms he said that SP mentioned female prisoners, nothing else.

And asked to recount patient safety issues he was vague and waffling, nothing concrete that could be deemed to be malpractice.

So for DU he may try and throw NHS under the bus and visa versa.

Which would leave the KC representing them in the shit.

The IMO important thing i would like to add is that when NC demanded that the original disclosure order must be enforced (of e mails etc) she said it was crucial for both sides as the truth could have consequences to the careers of either DU or SP.

I think this was a shot over the bow, she was telling DU tell the truth mate on Monday or your career is fucked.

So he is going to have to say he was a mere pawn, in a political game.

it is open to SP to make a complaint for professional misconduct should she at the very least secure a ruling that disbelieves DU.

I really would not fancy my chances at a game of chess with NC she is swift beyond worship.

I don’t believe he was a mere pawn. He was the instigator and he manipulated the situation and the NHS management were shit scared about what him and his people would do if they didn’t acquiesce. Now I am not trying to absolve them of blame - they have been horrific but I think he deserves everything that is coming at him.

Lunde · 08/02/2025 23:48

I am very interested in the significance of the text exchanges between DU and the BMA as NC keeps demanding these.

It makes me wonder - and this is speculation - whether the BMA advised or hinted or gave an impression that DU's complaints would be taken more seriously if the conflict was having an impact on patient care rather than a he said/she said dispute over the changing room ... and this led DU to scurry back and amend his complaints with the patient care "concerns".

Because it appears that DU did not report these concerns until after the CR argument as I don't think the SP and DU worked together after that date. So they must have occurred before. DU took sick leave for 2 months because of his trauma, SP was suspended or forced to work different shifts.

In DU's testimony last week JR rather gled past when these different reports were filled in and what they contained. DU did not mention reporting them when they arose. In fact his focus during testimony was solely on how the incidents affected him ( upset at not getting a wave or hi - doings obs that were beneath him) - he said nothing of the patients...

Manxexile · 08/02/2025 23:50

@guinnessguzzler - "... But seriously, I think the real problem there is that the definition of woman has been deliberately muddled over recent years, with boundaries consistently eroded, such that even though there is actually a good level of clarity, lots of people aren't aware of that. Combine that with people who either don't have the time or desire to check, or ability to recognise it as something worth checking, and we end up here..."

This ^.

The meaning of the word "woman" has become completely muddled and I suspect this might be why NHS Fife think they have no legal obligation to provide separate changing rooms (and toilet and washing facilities) for the two sexes.

Para 24 of the Workplace Regulations 1992 simply says that employers must provide separate changing facilities for men and women. Unfortunately there is no definition of the words "men" and "women" in the regulations, but I suppose that wasn't considered necessary back in 1992 - or even earlier.

If NHS Fife are of the opinion that TWAW then I suppose they think Dr U is not only entilted to use the women's changing rooms, but that he is obliged to.

It's all a mess...

What I find interesting and what obviously contributes to this muddle is the anomaly of definitions in the Equality Act.

Gender is obviously referred to in the Act, but the Act has no definition of gender.

Sex is mentioned and is defined as being a reference as to whether an individual is a man or a woman.

Man is defined as a male of any age

Woman is defined as a female of any age

Neither male nor female are defined anywhere in the legislation

Bannedontherun · 08/02/2025 23:52

@YourWiseBee i totally agree with his culpability because he set off a chain of events ( which i believe he pretty much said from the MN narratives) but was not recorded in the tweets.

The narrative we saw for the ERCC, with the non binary personage who with her silly notions of being non binary was something that was jumped all over by the trans ideologues.

And fucked everyone over.

He willl i have no doubt get his comeuppance one way or another.

kiwiane · 09/02/2025 02:13

The NHS has been ‘Stonewalled’ so that the requirement to provide single sex areas including staff ex/ changing rooms, patient bays and wards is redefined as ‘same gender’, where gender is self-defined.
My NHS hospital records gender rather than sex for new staff so how can HR possibly follow Equality Act legislation? I had diversity training that informed us that toddlers may present as the opposite sex - how is this not a safeguarding issue?
This is a recipe for disaster and has led to loss of privacy and dignity, to sexual assault and rape.
I salute Sandie P and her backers for taking this case to tribunal, I only wish we could depend on our trade unions to back the law and their female membership.

borntobequiet · 09/02/2025 07:05

Lunde · 08/02/2025 23:48

I am very interested in the significance of the text exchanges between DU and the BMA as NC keeps demanding these.

It makes me wonder - and this is speculation - whether the BMA advised or hinted or gave an impression that DU's complaints would be taken more seriously if the conflict was having an impact on patient care rather than a he said/she said dispute over the changing room ... and this led DU to scurry back and amend his complaints with the patient care "concerns".

Because it appears that DU did not report these concerns until after the CR argument as I don't think the SP and DU worked together after that date. So they must have occurred before. DU took sick leave for 2 months because of his trauma, SP was suspended or forced to work different shifts.

In DU's testimony last week JR rather gled past when these different reports were filled in and what they contained. DU did not mention reporting them when they arose. In fact his focus during testimony was solely on how the incidents affected him ( upset at not getting a wave or hi - doings obs that were beneath him) - he said nothing of the patients...

That’s an interesting speculation.

Ariana12 · 09/02/2025 07:07

Lunde · 08/02/2025 23:48

I am very interested in the significance of the text exchanges between DU and the BMA as NC keeps demanding these.

It makes me wonder - and this is speculation - whether the BMA advised or hinted or gave an impression that DU's complaints would be taken more seriously if the conflict was having an impact on patient care rather than a he said/she said dispute over the changing room ... and this led DU to scurry back and amend his complaints with the patient care "concerns".

Because it appears that DU did not report these concerns until after the CR argument as I don't think the SP and DU worked together after that date. So they must have occurred before. DU took sick leave for 2 months because of his trauma, SP was suspended or forced to work different shifts.

In DU's testimony last week JR rather gled past when these different reports were filled in and what they contained. DU did not mention reporting them when they arose. In fact his focus during testimony was solely on how the incidents affected him ( upset at not getting a wave or hi - doings obs that were beneath him) - he said nothing of the patients...

I agree. I think it's a toxic mix of trans activism from Upton super enabled by employers and BMA. Astonishing to reflect that within 18 months of him turning up there, this much distress, angst, expense, upset and general mayhem has resulted.

TimeForATerf · 09/02/2025 07:32

TWETMIRF · 08/02/2025 19:02

I still can't get over that he waved at her. Who the fuck waves at their colleagues?

This was exactly my thought. I have tried to visualise that meeting in the room where Upton was writing his notes 100 times. Each time I do, I see him waving and going “hellllooooo” in a passive aggressive voice. As though forcing her to engage with him and validate him.

With any other doctor I would image the conversation would be “Oh Sandie, patient X left without treatment, is there anything I need to add to the notes? No? Great, cheers”.

CriticalCondition · 09/02/2025 08:31

He wafts his hands around a lot on the witness stand. I'm willing to bet waving is a behavioural accessory adopted to signal his womanly essence. Like dangly earrings.

oldwomanwhoruns · 09/02/2025 08:33

Ariana12 · 09/02/2025 07:07

I agree. I think it's a toxic mix of trans activism from Upton super enabled by employers and BMA. Astonishing to reflect that within 18 months of him turning up there, this much distress, angst, expense, upset and general mayhem has resulted.

My thoughts exactly, @Ariana12 Were the toxic elves at the bma still smarting from the bad publicity from their Cass shenanigans? And looking for another pet project??

hollysmumma · 09/02/2025 08:44

Totallymessed · 08/02/2025 18:06

DU - didn't know her experience. As a woman I've also experienced everyday misogyny
DU - and patriarchy. I've been catcalled, touched on knee without consent, men have tried to hug me, made comments about my clothes. I empathise with that. Trans women and cis women are at risk. May not have same experience, but I was trying to understand based on my experience

I simply do not believe any of that has happened. You can see in photos of him that he's a large, well built, very masculine looking man. No-one is mistaking him for a woman.

This is what he wishes had happened!

Justabaker · 09/02/2025 08:48

Morning Mumsnetters.

Tribunal Tweets is trying to crowd source an answer. Are NHS Trusts insured for legal fees and settlements? Are they self insured? Do they just access the public purse because of course it is bottomless from the perspective of any individual trusts.

Any leads welcome.

anyolddinosaur · 09/02/2025 08:49

The BMA was taken over by young doctors fairly recently because the BMA did not stand up adequately for junior doctors over pay and the lack of training posts. There may be trans activists who could have egged Dr U on.

There is a long history of men wearing earrings. Those worn by sailors were said to be to cover their funeral. Tutankhamun had pierced ears. When Moses asked Mount Aaron to bring a god to them on Mount Sinai, he commanded them to bring him earrings and other jewels for their sons and daughters. In 1577, a note from a priest named William Harrison was published entitled The Description of England, which reads in part: "Some gentlemen and courtiers hang rings of gold, stone or pearls on their ears." Earrings on men are not unusual and if Dr U thinks they make him look more feminine he's mistaken.

anyolddinosaur · 09/02/2025 08:51

@Justabaker This looks relevant, just reading it myself. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a808f7ded915d74e33fb1f5/NHS_LA_Triennial_Review_Report.pdf

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 09:03

inkymoose · 08/02/2025 18:45

I am sorry to bring it up now (too late for this thread), but each time there's a new thread, I notice that the start date of the tribunal is said to be "Monday 3rd January 2025", and it was actually Monday 3rd February 2025. Every time there's a new thread, I check the header to see if January is still there, and it is. It's a typo and I shouldn't be bothered by it, but I am. So as there will likely be several new threads after this one, please could "January" be replaced by "February" in future headers?

Thanks.

<shuffles away awkwardly>

Hello @inkymoose - NHS Fife here - would you like a job? We're in desperate need of someone with your attention to detail! It seems that we have spent a lot of time writing policies regarding workplace Complaints, Bullying & Harassment, Suspension, and all the letter templates etc, but then after that noone seemed to be bothered to read or follow them (other than Dr U herself when whistling through the complaint process stages at top top speed - Oopsies!). We're now so worried you see because some pesky nurse has taken us to Employment Tribunal and it seems our complete disregard for our own procedures and inability to prepare appropriate paperwork - or maintain basic filing even - may be a bit of a problem. We are especially keen to find someone who can follow the HR Investigation flow chart and fill in the Investigation Plan Template as it seems we've done another whoopsie there! Our bad! Although for that post we'd like someone to have a basic ability to count also - our last staffer managed to get muddled about days versus months when notifying a nurse about suspension. Managed to suspend her only saying there had been a "serious complaint" for months until she asked a solicitor for advice. The silly sausage! Put her into a right scramble that solicitor's letter did and only then did she start reading the Suspension policy and follow the due process. Are you as good with paperwork as your eye for detail? Alternatively we have another post in the A&E for someone to work out rotas - do you know anyone who can work out how to temporarily organise the shifts so a nurse who only works 2 nights doesn't overlap with a Dr who only works days? Such a shame noone thought of that to avoid the suspension in the first place!? Which is why we're on the lookout for new talent like you! Posts come with all the usual perks including the extra special opportunity to change your clothes in front of our biologically male staff members. Now when would you like to come in for an IX - oops sorry - an Interview?

JustBitetheKnotsOff · 09/02/2025 09:06

Oh for goodness sake.
No woman should be forced to change her clothes in front of a male colleague.

Not trans. Male.

Madcats · 09/02/2025 09:08

@Justabaker Would NHS Fife be a member of this (pooling arrangement):

resolution.nhs.uk

I think the NHS is exempt from having employers liability cover (if they did have it they would have to display the certificate in a staff room or kitchen area).

I think the instructing solicitor is an employee of NHS Scotland (he might have a Linkedin profile connecting him to other NHS HR people nationally).

Ariana12 · 09/02/2025 09:08

oldwomanwhoruns · 09/02/2025 08:33

My thoughts exactly, @Ariana12 Were the toxic elves at the bma still smarting from the bad publicity from their Cass shenanigans? And looking for another pet project??

I think it's probably more that they are so steeped in the ideology that they can't see any perspective other than the primacy of trans ( male) rights.

nutmeg7 · 09/02/2025 09:11

It’s an excellent article, and I don’t mind the headline, it gives a quick clear overview of what the article is about.
Thank you Sonia💐

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 09:11

NotAGentleReminder · 08/02/2025 19:08

I remember being rendered speechless when discussing the Isla Bryson case with my trans-identifying family member and trying to say something about the safety risks to women of men being in women's prisons, and how identifying as a woman doesn't lower the risk of a man with a history of sexual violence etc etc. And she stared at me while banging her fist and zealously proclaiming 'I would defend to the death her right to be in a women's prison.' The power of online brainwashing is strong.

Edited

I'm sorry for your loss.

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