NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

@Justabaker remember health is devolved so it may be different in scotland than in england

Placemarking on this most excellent thread.
Booked in to observe tomorrow!

Also wondering if DU has taken notes of observed slights and made complaints about individuals before but offenders hadn't stood up to DU. Unlike Sandie.

That could be a Scottish-ism "sat looking at me" isn't necessarily sitting down. Just like "that's me away up the road!" is not an indication of time travelling ability

• Whistleblowing – her challenge to Dr U in the CR was a “protected disclosure” that led to “detriments” – Dr U punishing her via formal complaints of bullying and harassment etc.

I’m interested in this from @KnottyAuty ‘s post on the first page. I already saw the comment that whistleblowing was included as it means there is no limit on the compensation, but can someone who understands explain what the above actually means please?

Does it mean that she considers her comment to Dr Upton was a whistleblowing statement in itself? Surely to whistleblow, you need to tell an outsider a secret in order for it to be publicized?

Legal statements often baffle me, and I would appreciate the Mumsnet knowledge pool’s opinions. 🥰

Excellent article!

Spot on Guinness. The problem is that the NHS itself and their advisers were so captured by #BeKind, TWAW and Stonewall Law. Yes of course any halfway competent HR manager or CEO should have been saying exactly what you are saying. But they didn't. I hope if SP wins big the message may penetrate but that doesn't seem to be happening with Social Work. There are still so many captured institutions. We need this tribunal to get publicity in the mainstream media.

My impression was that is exactly what NC is after. The timeline and thread of the escalation and who asked him to bring patient issues to the fore.

My DH did something similar to this when I was discussing a difficult issue with DD the other day. We two women were talking to each other and he wanted to get in on the convo. Initially there was a bit of a wave but when we didn't immediately turn to him, he literally moved in between us to he could interject. He got short shrift from both of us! Just because DrU wanted to be in the conversation between 2 colleagues, can anyone explain if it would be appropriate or necessary in this situation?

Wow, that article absolutely nails it. And brings up the two historic reasons for transitioning, gender dysphoria and fetish.

AGP getting into the press.

Sonia has perfectly relayed that the timeline looks dodgy, as does the non-disclosure of certain documents. And that Upton can't grasp why women don't want to share a changing rooms with men.

She also masterfully avoids she pronouns.

Very straight talking article.

The short distance is so implausible that I wonder whether it's possible we've got it wrong? Does anyone remember that they were watching when the distance was actually mentioned? I don't think I was.

(And yes, the commentisfree article is outstanding, and Sonia Sodha won't be responsible for the heading, iiuc.)

Also, as an aside, if you are waving at someone from half a metre away, 18 or 19 inches, it's practically in their face

Firstly thanks for this informative post.

Secondly, I have a slightly different perspective concerning the conduct of Fife NHS and Upton (if Pink News refer to Sandie Peggie as Peggie then Brian/Frank Upton will be referred to as Upton.)

The employers expectation was that Sandie would roll-over, would disappear into the ether in time on the back of Upton's detailed notes, his status as a Dr and the wave of trans-activism heralding that men who identify as trans are therefore women and entitled to the spaces, protection and privileges........ women are afforded.... to protect them..... from men.

(Jesus, I am struggling to believe I am typing the words above.)

What wasn't expected was a co-ordinated, disciplined and professionally organised legal kickback, that women would not stand in numbers for other women in the main, although there are substantial numbers of men supporting their friends, daughters and partners.

It is glorious to see the support for Sandie. NHS Fife owe her more than a public apology, and this case will have ramifications for the NHS nationally.

Brilliant work everyone.

The link seems to be broken. I think NHS trusts are insured through a central Clinical Negligence scheme. But this doesn't cover claims against them in an employment tribunal. So it's public funds all the way.

"And what about the dog?
Yes, that's the only question.
You'll find him in his bed,
With everlasting indigestion!"

10 points if you recognise the book!

Link works for me by c&p ing the URL

This is a very useful discussion. The Judge in the pre-trial Case Management Order said the request by DrU for anonymity was refused because while they had some not unfounded concerns about possible violence against TW there was no actual evidence of real risk to him personally.

So this discussion is making me think of who is the risk to TW? Well statistically - like for females generally - the risk to TW mainly comes from males. That is why there is a female only changing room in the first place. So if Dr U was generally concerned or anxious about safety etc, then it would be natural to want to change in a safer place? So was it not concerns about the male CR which lead Dr U to the female facility? Therefore illustrating why females would feel less safe about a bio male entering the female CR?

DU said half a metre in testimony...

JR - what did you say and to who.
DU - I said hi and waved to C. She answered Rhianna, didn't look at me but said no concerns.
JR - where was C looking?
DU - at R.
JR - how far were you?
DU - half a metre. I said thank you and there was no acknowledgement.
JR - then?
DU - she left the area

Right, but I was wondering whether TT might have misrecorded, or he might have mis-spoken. Maybe NC will go over it in cross. And/or maybe I should just stop trying to invent doubt to give him the benefit of!

Thoughtful post, @eulittleb831, and I'd add that the number of female Victoria Hospital staff who have been supporting Upton in this case might have encouraged them in their belief that women wouldn't get behind Sandie. I believe I've still to read a single male name in the cast list of those supporting Upton's actions. And A&E tends to have a fair number of male staff.

NHS Scotland has the Central Legal Office in Edinburgh who will likely be the instructing solicitors for NHS Fife. Don't know if they would instruct for Dr Upton.There is the CNORIS (Clinical negligence and other risks indemnity scheme) which NHS Fife are covered by. Don't know if that would cover employment law risks.

Someone said earlier that the waving is often because men think it's a thing women do. A gentle, shy womanly wave is how we greet everyone. So I can well believe DrU waved at sandie, and I can also imagine she ignored it because she was busy and not minded to play his games.

One thing which strikes me about this is how NHS Fife tried to suggest they only had one IT person who could run the searches for emails etc. this is an NHS trust with over 8000 staff they will have a lot of IT people. Also NHS Scotland will have a huge IT department who could help out. Clearly an attempt to stop the tribunal getting access to the documents

Echoing what others have made clear, strong words, plainly expressed and yes a brilliant and concise article. Commonsense rings true....... all because a man acts like a petulant child and can't get his own way. A clever and gifted man no doubt who is happily constructing his case with the assistance of others in an attempt to continue with ill-thought out arrangements that are a clear injustice to women, an affront to their dignity and integrity.

Lots of IT staff at Victoria Hospital and a huge IT department across NHS Scotland is not going to play well with the panel..

Thank you @Sosad1234
Excellent article.

Based on the comments on Day 1 from NC when trying to get the former GMC registration certificate (male name) entered into evidence - the power angle is v likely to be something she will be exploring. That and being just a little ickle bit too aware of due process and procedure and how to evidence everything - unlike NHS Fife who it seems opted for a pot luck approach to policy following. Read the TT quesions from JR to SP about the suspension - what she asks reveals what their side is nervous about. "that was all to policy" "you got the letter in 4 days" "you were given the details for the contact person" etc But what she doesn't mention is all the flagrant policy breaches related to information release to SP (didn't happen for months when it should be days) and maybe even whether she should have been suspended at all... the whole thing stinks because DrU was so visibly distressed and so obviously aware of procedure that he was probably perceived as a higher (professional) risk (legal and personal prospects etc) to the department and the staff so the bent to his will and version of events - without asking SP what happened for weeks... Actually the way she was treated I couldn't have handled it. I once was told about an initial HR (pre investigation) meeting on a Thursday night and had to wait over the weekend until Monday. It affected my sleep, I couldn't eat, it was so stressful - and that came to nothing and I was told so on the day of the meeting. Can't imagine what it would be like for SP. I wouldn't even wish that treatment on Dr U. It's inhumane what the NHS peeps did to her - all because he exerted power over them - whether he knew it or not