NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

Oh yes excellent back to the movie!
We now have the title thanks to @TWETMIRF
Dr Upton & The Datix of Shame

Starring (suggestions from thread #5?)

David Tennant as Dr U (DH said really it should be TW role for fairness so suggestions please)

Imelda Staunton as JR due to vocal similarities with Prof Umbridge - but would be better to find someone closer to JR’s age?

Glen Close as NC (? Think we’re all showing our age here - any younger suggestions please?)

SP still casting

suggestions please!

Thank you NotMaroonButRaspberry that was the review I was thinking of. As you say we were hopeful that would permeate but it hasn't and now those who ignored it are facing public tribunals.

Jeffrey for Upton?

Sarah Lancashire for Nurse Peggie?

That was what I was responding to.

@KnottyAuty “reasonable observer” is a more fitting expression I think - emailed the et for access tomorrow, this forum is such a valuable resource, thanks.

NC must surely ask why Beth/Brian/Frank to differentiate between “his community,
his people” and why they should have access to the changing room of an entirely
different community altogether, circumventing the safeguards to protect women.

interested in everyone’s views on this.

The trope of the mens changing room is one of everyone letting it all hang out - definitely not avoiding eye contact and facing the wall.
@MahoosivePaws

I feel bound to say Not All Men ...

I certainly wouldn't be 'sad' not to be able to proudly display my naked body in a changing room. It is not only a male trait but a particularly histrionic and self-absorbed trait to want to do this - or indeed to be actively attracted to changing rooms in general.

The main problem with that in my view was that Peggie referred to prisons, and Upton 'assumed' she meant Bryson, based on fuck-all.

Subsequently, his 'assumption' has been tacitly transformed into fact.

He created an accusation that Peggie never made.

@KnottyAuty David Tennant as Dr U (DH said really it should be TW role for fairness so suggestions please)

Karla Sofía Gascón is available, I believe

Women are skilled at getting into/out of a bra and into/out of a swimming costume without taking their jumper off.

Ah yes, the getting the bra off without taking the jumper off trick and putting bottom half of swimming costume on whilst still wearing skirt learnt many moons ago at the all girls school I attended.

Re the changing room - is also worth commenting that Dr U's behaviour in grabbing and laying claim to his 'territory' (ie the corner area) is unbelievably male behaviour!
Females don't do this, we will just go to a free space. But always going to the same space, to 'his' space is male behaviour. And he said that he always goes to the corner.

In a lot of civil law countries it is not possible to have a practising certificate as a lawyer and work in house, whether for a private company or public sector, for this very reason. Employment alone means the lawyer cannot truly be independent.

I would imagine that many women would not get changed close to Dr U's corner in case he came in

Ooh yes, you'd soon learn to keep well clear of the man corner! One wonders of he realised why 'his' corner was always so conveniently free...

I would imagine that many women would not get changed close to Dr U's corner in case he came in

Imagine the notes in the black book if a women was actually in his corner when he came in. The shock, the horror, the micro and macro aggression an immediate sacking offence surely.

Today in the Times

"Labour shelves plans to make gender change easier"

www.thetimes.com/article/04892a42-1268-4b74-a818-7289c7a0e97e?shareToken=aea5dd60de12d8d195ebb6ab51e2153e

Going back to the grounds for whistleblowing, I think Sp is both drawing attention to the illegality of a man in the female changing room, and also explicitly telling him that he is damaging her health and safety. I have no sense that she was setting up for a grievance. It just so happens that her conversation with DU covered 2 of the categories.

Yes I agree.

However this is because men have not learned to fear changing, in public, in front of women - even if they prefer SSC. women are highly attuned to spotting men - it is a survival mechanism.

It does feel like Dr U has some preconceptions about women’s behaviour in CR and these haven’t been met. I remember an exchange I was part of on X a while ago, the TW seemed to really believe that it was an inherently female experience to sit on your bed with your friends in “your panties” (puke) and do each others make up. I never let my friend do my make up and I might have my knickers on show for a brief instant before a dress was pulled over my head but that’s it. We weren’t running around the bedroom getting ready for nights out in the nip. He thought that’s what we did and felt he had been denied this part of “womanhood” and it was his right that women recreate it with him.

This makes a lot of sense. Even if you don't have any trans-identified employees, or you are a service like a gym, you will consider the possible future threat from a trans-identified male greater than the threat from any women. Indeed, you might consider that there is already a threat from transactivists outside the organisation trawling your policies to look for 'wrong think'.

So to win our spaces and our laws back we have to be a greater litigation threat than the transactivists.

Genius!

As in … & Bungle?
really showing my age now 😂

Would I care if a woman was in the men's changing room? Some men would but, speaking for myself, I wouldn't, regardless of how she identified, provided I wasn't expecting to strip completely naked. I really couldn't be bothered about a woman seeing me in my underwear. She isn't going to see any more than she would at the swimming pool (and, sadly, no woman is going to be driven wild with desire by seeing my somewhat overweight and no longer young body).

A somewhat surprising contribution sir, but duly noted.

And Bungle could play NHS Fife (Bungle by name ...)

Sorry I got that wrong ACAS says “typical” person