NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

one of the women's rights twitter also noticed that a headline and the photo weren't aligning - showing Ms Peggie when the headline was about Dr. Upton. Many people complained and the newspaper changed it - sorry, I don't know anymore which one it was.
Definitely the complaints and feedback have an effect.

Informative. Thanks.

This is the image. I cropped it a bit to tight so not sure which publication.

This is all good relevant stuff.

Why do biological females have separate CRs?
We have them for need of safety, privacy and dignity as set out in MF’s Witness Statement.
Biological males do represent a risk to women.

Why do TW need separate CRs?
For need of safety, privacy and dignity as per females with respect to biological males. It would be for TW to evidence this need as MF has done for biological females. (It probably won’t be hard to find that evidence)

Why do TW want to use female only CRs?
They are existent and not available to biological males.
To be accepted and with “their people” as “a female” or “woman. For acceptance.

Needs and Wants are two different things
Most important is to “meet need”

Is a biological female’s need more or less important than a TW’s need for acceptance as a woman? The panel must decide what would the average person think?

It was here: https://news.stv.tv/east-central/nhs-trust-accused-of-failing-to-disclose-details-in-transgender-doctor-tribunal

@Vegemiteandhoneyontoast @Signalbox

Yes, that's the image I meant, thanks for finding it again. I read it was changed after complaints from readers.

Is that really because men don’t mind women who say they are men in their changing room

I am a man, but I do not claim to speak for all men.

I have only encountered a woman (other than cleaners) in a men-only space once. The woman in question had initially joined the queue for the ladies but had moved to the (shorter and much faster moving) queue for the gents. No-one batted an eyelid.

Would I care if a woman was in the men's changing room? Some men would but, speaking for myself, I wouldn't, regardless of how she identified, provided I wasn't expecting to strip completely naked. I really couldn't be bothered about a woman seeing me in my underwear. She isn't going to see any more than she would at the swimming pool (and, sadly, no woman is going to be driven wild with desire by seeing my somewhat overweight and no longer young body).

By way of full disclosure, I have once been in a women-only space. At university, the ladies was on the first floor, the gents was on the second floor. The layout of both floors was almost identical. I once forgot which floor I was on and walked into the ladies. It was 50 years ago, but I can still remember how confused I was when I walked through the door and saw a room that didn't look anything like the one I was expecting.

@KnottyAuty
Probably it would be cheaper for a lot of institutions to pay a construction crew for a few self-contained unisex changing places added onto existing structures.

I remember the good advice on the unisex toilets thread to say that these should be additional and not instead for single-sex places, for the health risks if someone collapses in a locked place.
But there are probably clever architects who can make this as good and safe as possible.

That would cost a lot less than sueing everyone who does not fall in line.

Sorry, I am now completely lost as to what you were responding to. Was it the original question I was asked?

The case I talked about earlier was a TIW requesting access to the male changing room, it didn’t generate any complaints, I doubt anyone, (who didn’t know them), noticed.

I strongly suspect if it was the other way round we’d have had another Darlington.

Dr U said by habit they’d face the Corner to make sure that no one got the impression that Dr U was looking at others. They said they “felt sad” they had to do this/be so careful. Even though that’s how average women behave in CRs

Sad such an interesting word to use - sad because he was unable to look at the women changing or sad because he couldn't show them his body when changing?

Whichever way you cut it DU shows by saying this that he knows he is not a woman and not female and he knew his presence was causing issues for the women using that changing room.

@RethinkingLife 'It will be interesting to learn more about that email and Searle's role in 'supporting' Upton to write the Datix of shame'

If this is ever made into a film then it has to be called Dr Upton and the Datix of Shame

The answer from HR was that they expected the law to change to catch up with our policies and that the lawyers had advised them it was too complicated to keep facilities single sex

Ah yes, the ahead of the law trope which was torn to shreds in a previous case some time ago, think it was a University(?). Anyway, what else would HR or Lawyers get ahead of the law on?

I’m defo going to try that with HMRC - I need to pay less tax m’lord

No, she hates shopping. I do all of it unless I'm ill or away from home. If there's another woman in the house I'm in big trouble.

You asked about costs incurred if the tribunal was stopped and then started again. I commented on this, summing up, it probably adds to costs but that's incremental. I then went on to comment on a couple of rare circumstances when costs might be awarded in first tier tribunals - generally by the unreasonable behaviour of one side or the other.
I implied rather than stated that if the incomplete disclosure was sufficiently egregious, there might be an argument for some of Peggie's costs. Assuming she wins.

I believe that the law will change and it will be legal to murder someone. I'm sure that defence will hold up in court if the bigoted police arrest me, right?

Is my DH 'getting ahead of the law' when he goes very fast* on his motorbike?

*but not breaking the speed limit obvs

the lawyers had advised them it was too complicated to keep facilities single sex

I wonder why this is? Do they expect trans people to be dishonest about their sex if the rooms are clearly labelled to be sex-specific (not gender identity etc)?

Yep. Antagonistic. Provocative. A declaration of self-validation to his community, his people, all of whom are men and not women. I strongly feel he has shot himself right in the pecker on this one, if NC gets drift of the specific wording he has used with reference to his submissions. His community, his people (other men) he believes have a right to impose themselves on the CR of women. It is more worrying because he is a GP and acts with total disregard for the anxieties, concerns and vulnerabilities of women, all of which he will not be fully aware of because he is a man.

I was responding to NotMaroonbutRaspberry who asked about costs.

I didn’t quote the original thread in my response because I was also responding to you.

I think me responding to two threads in one post caused the confusion. 😀

I think this was the University of Essex and Akua Reindorf's review.

Bit depressing how good that felt at the time, and the sense of "surely they'll wake up now" and yet we seem no further forward in many ways.

I think there's been some crosse dwires here

I was referring to the costs of the case in terms of paying the legal teams, accomodation costs, court time, etc rather than costs awarded.

When they said it may be postponed I was figuring that obviously people like NC and JR have blocked out their diaries for this and not only is that time then not used for the ET court time, but they also have to find another 10 days etc later in the year, travel to Scotland again etc.

I'm quite interested in the bit about Dr Upton facing the wall when changing and it making him sad - as referenced by pp.

Dr U said by habit they’d face the Corner to make sure that no one got the impression that Dr U was looking at others. They said they “felt sad” they had to do this/be so careful. Even though that’s how average women behave in CRs

It is absolutely my experience that that is exactly how women normally behave in open changing rooms. Gettting changed with as little exposure as possible, and absolutely not wanting to look at anyone else. Women are skilled at getting into/out of a bra and into/out of a swimming costume without taking their jumper off. We are conditioned into shame about our bodies - both top and bottom half.

I suspect it's just completely different to the behaviour of men - particularly those who have taken part in sports activities at school or university, which Dr Upton's hockey photos would suggest he has. Men need have no shame in being topless for one thing, and given they use urinals regularly, they are well used to exposing their private parts in a way that no woman is. The trope of the mens changing room is one of everyone letting it all hang out - definitely not avoiding eye contact and facing the wall.

It makes me wonder if Dr Upton's expectation was that behaviour in the women's changing room would be just like the mens, and therefore assumed that people's avoidance of eye contact etc was all about him.

A bit of narcissism obviously, but also just symptomatic of the fact that men do not/can not understand women's experiences and how they shape our behaviours.

Minor point but, if SP has incurred additional costs due to the disclosure failures, the tribunal can order the defendants to pay those additional costs even if she loses.