Why do all trans discussions end in a bun fight?

[Name5]

I have a natal daughter who is a young adult. I try to keep an open dialogue with her as her thoughts are changing as she gets older.
She is not causing any discord to anyone. I try to help when desparate parents ask simple questions about their LGBTQ DC ( this week it was about getting a job). Within a few hours there are big fights re toilets and rape crisis centres. Yes these things are horrifying but every bloody thread gets high jacked with these points of law. There should be a subject category for parents of adult trans people. This would allow issues to be discussed without the OP being subjected to accusations of ideology or affirmation. I don't believe my DD is better as a male persona but I can't and won't bully her to accept my feelings override hers. She's still my DC and all subjects are open to reasonable and lawful discussion. MNHQ can you please list a new category so people don't feel attacked and bullied?

Why on earth did you start a thread here instead of LGBT children?

@RedToothBrush you are becoming abusive to me.
I did not start this thread for a fight.

You asked for help yourself some time ago and I was one of the people who helped you under my regular name. I am shocked you have decided to act like this and this is my last post to you.

You are the one ating me and posting offensive stuff about 'male traits'. It's gross sexism. I am not being abusive. Your intentions were clear from the start.

Good day to you.

Asked for help? Like a wat?

Is this like a tally system? Not that I can even recall such a thing on a personal level. More widely on a 'it will help a bunch of people' yes.

That's deeply manipulative to suggest I somehow 'owe' you.

I most definitely do not.

Women with short hair wearing trousers and calling themselves John rather than Jane have been around and regarded as run-of-the-mill for at least a century. Pre WW1 they would have been seen as odd, after that not so much. Some of them were lesbians (also quite usual, and never illegal), others not.

The thing that puzzles me is why that is regarded as being anything to do with 'gender' or 'trans'. As I said on another thread lately, do people not read books any more?

It's all a bit 'I'm mad, me!' which is always very dull.

I'm sorry but I am not allowing a very angry poster to attack me.
Leave me alone. Your abusive post has been reported.

I'm not angry or abusive, just a bit baffled by the way the young generation have framed their attention-seeking behavior this way. Online influencers, obviously. Stuff from Japan, yes, people who are still, 50 years on, under the influence of PIE, yes. Nothing good for women or children.

@DeanElderberry I was referring to another poster.
I agree the Internet has alot to answer for. Also the USA.

OP, people speaking bluntly is not abusive.

OP there will be a lot of projection here there always is on MN. You haven't said tons on this thread about your daughter (totally your right) so people will be talking more generally.

I would still find it pretty sexist for someone to demonstrate so openly that they think there are traits and interests incompatible with being female but in reality if she's respectful and somewhat thoughtful I'd probably see her as getting muddled by the people (online, wherever) who are deliberately confusing people with the "be kind" and "cis folks" and "right side of history".

Telling you that it's sexist and belongs in the Victorian era to suggest some activities and likes are "male traits" is not abusive. And this is why threads end badly - because anyone defending sexism, misogyny and homophobia becomes upset and accuses others of poor behaviour.

If what you wanted was a thread for TRAs you should go to reddit.

Says someone who starts a thread to scold posters on FWR based on stereotypes.

Describing humans in terms of male or female traits/interests in relation to them having gender identities while on a feminist board is going to get negative reactions. Because it is incongruent with feminism.

I'm quoting myself, to suggest that the OP should perhaps have left while she was ahead - at the point I wrote this post, there had been a range of posts that were informative, helpful and supportive, or general discussions of the issues, not directed at the OP or her DD.

The OP even posted that she was leaving the thread:
Name5 · Yesterday 15:42
Thank you for all the posts. I am going to leave the thread now.

But oh look! the OP's back, calling other posters abusive and reporting them.
Determined to have that bun fight, eh?

No that’s true but Red had assumed that the OP herself was suggesting her DDs hobbies and interests were ‘male’ and told the OP that this was disgusting. In fact, the OP was commenting themselves how upsetting it was that others (teachers? Online?) had labelled her DDs hobbies as ‘male’. It is upsetting that we’ve regressed so bloody much and lost so much ground.

@Name5 the answer is that not everything has to end in a bun fight and many, many posters agree on the basic concerns about the harm that gender ideology does to young people. Including yourself. There can be, however, a fair amount of misunderstanding on a chat thread when one poster refers to the preceding comment and not everyone wants to RTT.

FWR is a robust place and, IMO, that’s largely a good thing as it forces me, in any event, to clarify and defend my thinking and points of argument. FWIW, it sounds as though your DD is moving away from her identifying as male. Certainly no one would wish you to bully her! That doesn’t get a parent anywhere positive. It is difficult to discuss the reality of how sex matters with young adult DC who are indoctrinated in the GI. Speaking personally. Generally we agree not to discuss the topic.

Edited to add that @MarieDeGournay you might have missed where it was implied that the OP was labelling her DDs hobbies and interests as ‘male’, thus contributing to the problem. This was an unfair characterisation and the OP had grounds for being upset. It’s better when posters calmly refute the misunderstanding (I’ve been impressed by FWRs posters able to do this), but not everyone can do this on an emotional topic.

The OP did not do this though.

She didn’t suggest some activities were male traits though! 🤷🏻‍♀️

@DrBlackbird Look at the OP's posts "She has few male traits. I'm fact she is one of the most gentle people I know."

There have not been any "abusive posts" - Red didnt say the OP had made those comments, she said those comments were sexist. Unless the OP was thinking in sexist terms why take it personally?.

This thread has taken a very odd turn.

OP it sounds like you've had a difficult time with your daughter and I wish you well.

It's a bit odd to be surprised that posters on the women's rights sex and gender board view discussions through a feminist lens.

I also can't see where anyone has been abusive. Not liking what someone has to say isn't them being abusive to you.

Maybe it would be best not to post about a subject so close to your heart if it's too painful to discuss frankly? You're not going to get solely affirmation on here.

That does not equal 'bunfight'.

Okay @anyolddinosaur yes she made that one comment, true but we don’t always perfectly express our thoughts in a single post. Her other posts go on to talk about others equating those hobbies to male interests. Plus, we might all occasionally fall into the trap of labelling some traits as male or female. I catch myself falling into this trap sometimes anyhow.

My DD had a manny and I guess she equated certain sports and hobbies with boys.
**
so she's been told.
Cobblers to that. Ditto her interest in cars
**
its interesting that some view hobbies as male or female. My DD likes marvel, speaks Japanese and loves film. She is also a computer wizz. At boarding school she caused a rumpus for refusing basic cookery classes (my dad taught her to cook as a three year old, she didn't see the need to make scones! ) and she was sanctioned for wearing trousers.

It seemed to me that in those other posts the OP is agreeing that it’s crazy that her DDs interests were being labelled as male ones and agreeing that was part of the problem. And seemed to me that the OP was being given a harder time than warranted.

My opinion anyway.

The OP did say that they considered their daughter had male traits.

And has reported posters for being abusive when they have not been abusive. Frankly, it is quite hard to understand just what is actually going on and what the motivation for posting this thread with this title on FWR was.

This all seems to come down to 'would you please get in and stay in these confining and actually quite offensive gender/belief based boxes because it distresses my child and makes my life/perspective difficult if you don't'.

I'm very sorry for your child's distress and your difficult position but no. I won't. I am not obliged to set myself on fire to keep anyone else warm, however sad their story.

The OP said she has some male traits!!!

My mother constantly saying 'you should have been a boy because you do boy things' and vice versa was a significant issue to me and my brother.

It's incredibly relevant and I notice it when others do it.

Other people might think it's a throwaway remark.

I absolutely do not. I think it's one that should be pick up on and pointed out as being significant.

That is a very harmful rhetoric from your mother Red. And yes those comments can land and be internalised, resulting in confusion, damage and the perpetuation of stereotypes. Perhaps it was a significant remark of the OP and indicative of recurring comments made to her DD? It didn’t seem to me that there was enough information to know one way or another. Though she did make 3 subsequent posts criticising the stereotyping of hobbies.

Whilst I agree with @Helleofabore that the opening position of the thread came across as defensive/combative and in reaction to some other thread exchanges, in the end I thought that generally the OP was agreeing that labelling hobbies and interests as male or female was contributing to gender confusion and wrong. Plus, to a certain extent I sympathise trying to find that balance being firmly sex realist when navigating and maintaining loving relationships with DCs firmly TWAW.