Why do all trans discussions end in a bun fight?

[Name5]

I have a natal daughter who is a young adult. I try to keep an open dialogue with her as her thoughts are changing as she gets older.
She is not causing any discord to anyone. I try to help when desparate parents ask simple questions about their LGBTQ DC ( this week it was about getting a job). Within a few hours there are big fights re toilets and rape crisis centres. Yes these things are horrifying but every bloody thread gets high jacked with these points of law. There should be a subject category for parents of adult trans people. This would allow issues to be discussed without the OP being subjected to accusations of ideology or affirmation. I don't believe my DD is better as a male persona but I can't and won't bully her to accept my feelings override hers. She's still my DC and all subjects are open to reasonable and lawful discussion. MNHQ can you please list a new category so people don't feel attacked and bullied?

“Apart from, if you try to define a set of biological criteria you will fail. There are exceptions to every rule and people who don't fit into near categories.”

“You could imagine a graph with characteristics like what gametes you produce, what hormones you secrete, what chromosomes you have, what physical development you display, what psychological traits in brain structure etc etc - we divide this into two categories but could theoretically have many more.”

When the exceptions are those with medical conditions, why does society need to distort the category definition to fit this miniscule number of people?

Considering through the current medical technology, it is very very rare to not be able to categorise a person into either of the sexed body group. Therefore, these paragraphs don’t really reflect the situation in my opinion.

I have seen the bipedal category used as a good comparator. If a person has been born that has more or less legs than two, are they considered to be not a human?

I think that the descriptor of a human with a body formed around the production of small / large gametes, regardless of whether those gametes are produced at any time is a safe categorisation tool.

That will cover many people with differences of sex development too who get leveraged into these discussions by people who want to utilise their conditions to somehow explain gender identity and the ideological concepts that drive those identities.

Thank you to the OP for coming back, many posters don't, and I join other posters in sending good wishes to you and your daughter in negotiating your way through 'things' [keeping that as neutral as possible!].

There are no buns to enjoy, though, OP, as this has not been a bun fight. There have been helpful pointers to other threads, strong opinions, thoughtful insights, personal testimonies, about a difficult topic which has no middle ground, but buns? I don't think so.

“I think another problem is that different groups of people have different perceptions of the risk posed by transwomen in women's spaces.”

The current social media content released around Will Ferrell’s series is a good example of this. The ‘I don’t know why …. ‘ disingenuous statement seems very tone deaf when you see it.

I feel the same way though when I see women who dismiss other women’s issues. The statements such as ‘I don’t have a problem with these males being in female single sex spaces’ then positioning those who do as bigots and hateful and ignorant seems to only come from privilege or idealism or a very heavy personal investment. Or all three.

Whatever the motivation, what those people have in common is lowered boundaries. And they want to shame those who don’t have low boundaries.

When anyone shames women and girls to lower their boundaries to allow these male people access, it is not fucking kind at all.

The whole 'well I don't have a problem so I don't understand why you should' is just dreadful privileged nonsense which isn't actually listening.

Having now read the whole thread, I'd like to respond to this comment.

"anti-trans"

What does "anti-trans" mean?

Do you think the poster you are quoting is anti trans people, or anti the idea of being trans?

To me it makes a big difference.

Anti is framed as such a negative word, but we can't be pro everything. You can be anti war, anti apartheid, your soap can be antibacterial. It's actually a good thing to be anti things which are negative.

For example, I am anti smoking. I think it's a vile habit and would gladly see it banned everywhere. Does that mean I hate all people who smoke? No, of course not. It's the smoking I am against, not the people who are addicted to it.

Same with trans. I am not anti trans people. I can think of individual trans people I like very much. I certainly wish them no harm.

But trans as in the idea, well yes, I'm definitely anti that. I simply don't believe there is any such thing as a gender identity which matches any kind of genitalia. I find the idea ridiculous, and the consequences of people holding this belief harmful. It's harmful to the individuals concerned, particularly those who go on to ruin their health with unnecessary medical interventions. It's harmful to those around them, including their families who may be destroyed by it, and wider society such as women and girls who want and deserve single sex spaces and sports. I find the whole thing pernicious.

If someone considers that "trans" is a harmful ideology, then calling them "anti trans" isn't going to have much impact. Because it's normal to be anti things that you consider harmful.

What did you want from this thread, op? Your daughter is heading down a path to poor health. Do you feel "attacked and bullied" by being told that? Or do you accept that it comes from a place of concern for your child who is self-harming? There are plenty of links on this board to places where you can find support in trying to move your child away from harming herself.

Threads turn into bun fights because TRAs want them to.

Because people that believe sex is not binary - can’t handle the truth that it is. And that that truth, is immovable. The truth hurts and it manifests itself as aggression. Tra know it and so it’s like being backed into a corner, there’s no escaping the truth.

@anyolddinosaur i do not feel attacked. It is a just opinions. What I wanted to know was where parents of tq+ adult DC could ask questions and seek support. The board that exists is for LGBTQ children. Yes there are some older DC mentioned but not many.
When I first became aware my DD was involved in trans ideology I sort advice on mumsnet. It was helpful as has all the Signposting.

It's the feminist board so feminist things will come up - that's the point, really. We want space to discuss very important and very pertinent problems that affect women now.

As to your DD, I don't think you need to bully her with your feelings. Some biological facts would do - she's not a young man. Something she may find out in much more uncomfortable ways without your help to see it.
As to 'doing no harm', she is asking everyone around her to lie about what is perfectly plain and to disregard biological fact because it suits her. That's harm to others, IMHO. Sorry.

@Grammarnut my DD accepts her sex.
She is also in a heterosexual relationship.

She was caught in a time when schools and the Internet were heavily focusing on gender questioning youth. That is waining.
I didn't ask the question solely for myself it was to help parents of adult DC.
That's been largely ignored.
I will not post anything regarding my DD on this board going forward.

Thank you for all the posts. I am going to leave the thread now.

@Name5 Do you think the non binary identity is a phase she will grow out of?

This is such a simple and yet brilliant way of putting it thank you .

@MissScarletInTheBallroom
Yes. So much has changed from wanting surgery to now wanting her own children. I see a butterfly coming forward.
She has few male traits. I'm fact she is one of the most gentle people I know.

I have fought tooth and nail including legal action on occasion to preserve her health and mind. She hated me but I saw everything through the lense of a potential law suit later on. (family of lawyers). I didn't want to be accused of not 'stopping her' when she was too young to know her arse from her elbow.
There is a big back story to this but it is too painful for me to post. I'm sorry.

With a man, presumably?

A man yes.

It seems from your posts that you have treated her wisely and she has come through. For which she will thank you in the future.

Well done. It must have been very hard at times.

That sounds really promising. Well done for doing the right thing by your daughter. Hopefully she will come out the other side of all of this unscathed.

@Name5
I empathise. I have a very vulnerable autistic adult son who has been struggling with their identity for almost 10 years because of this bloody ideology. I stand with FWR and the toxicity of teaching young people that they can change sex.

However, I also agree that as parents of young adults caught in this phenomenon it can feel different. Frankly I don't care if people don't think that he is female. He obviously isn't female. He doesn't think he has literally changed sex or that he is an actual woman because he has long hair and sometimes wears a dress. He doesn't insist on pronouns. He does need people to not yell at him in the street or show actual hostility to him because of the way he presents.

I suppose I would like to go back to "be kind" but when be kind meant only, don't be horrible or an arse hole. Don't tear my very gentle, very fragile son to shreds for the way he looks, because he was never going to fit in this world. But on the other hand, DS knows that his "be kind" is to respect that whilst you may wish you were a girl, and want to present in that way, your fate is that you are not genuinely one. You don't go in women's spaces or bathrooms or take their awards. Just live your life quietly as a liminal being.

The fact is that at 24 there is nothing I can do except advise. So I have advised him to take it slow, figure himself out, do nothing permanent. It really doesn't help that I feel I can't take him for proper unbiased medical help that won't rush to affirm him (another thank you to FWR, or I would have been hopelessly naive about that).

The situation is very clear when it's theoretical
It's much more complex when it's your own adult child. You can't say to a person who is in the grip of despair about their deepest sense of self "Sorry but you are a boy that's all there is to it, pull yourself together". If that had been said at school before possibilities were suggested....but it's too late for that, and this distress is real, and it has lasted for years and years, and if it wasn't gender it would be punk or emo or anorexia or something else. I just want him to be ok, and I don't care if that's in a dress for now.

We divide this into two categories but could theoretically have many more.

Eh? This statement is utter nonsense. There are only two sex categories... male and female! Any biological deviation from male or female "norms" is a developmental disorder FFS!

OP you seem to know your own mind and it seems to have kept you sane. (I didn't follow your previous thread).

No worries if you don't want to get into it but I was interested in you saying the trans stuff online and in schools is waning. Do you think so? (I'm not arguing with you, it's not something I can really quantify! ) If so perhaps the phase is winding down somewhat?

what psychological traits in brain structure etc etc - we divide this into two categories but could theoretically have many more.

Going back to this as I missed it - there are certainly not two types of brains. Sex generally only consistently correlates with brain size (as it's relative to body size). Genderism would make far more sense if there was any psychological makeup, or even a single trait, that was distinct to one sex.

The whole point of gender criticism is that there isn't.

You can't take two people, see that one scores higher on empathy or logic or pattern-spotting and conclude that one is male and one is female "because their brain".

These boards offer support to parents of children who are confused about their identity when the parent is distressed by that. There is some condemnation of those who e.g. state their family is homophobic and who actively support transitioning children but not for those distressed by it. So what you appeared to want is a board where TRAs can go to receive support. There is plenty of that elsewhere on the internet.

@BulletproofHat there are therapists who dont immediately affirm but will try to find why your adult child is experiencing distress and if there are non damaging ways to alleviate it. Unfortunately they are hard to find. I'd like to go back to the 70s when it was "if you havent tried it dont mock it" and be tolerant of difference. Men had long hair and while grandads tutted they didnt yell in the streets. Unfortunately we've gone backwards.

@popeydokey im not sure after eight years I'm still sane!

I do know Cass is being proposed as a university resource. And I've heard that local schools have dialled back (I was a school govenor).
One poster on this thread mentioned a gender questioning minor (I do not use the term trans child because it is not a supported term). TRAs may think otherwise. The child was causing issues at their DCs school. Mine did try that at fifteen but we told her the outcome could cause the teacher to lose their job. She stopped immediately. I have been lucky as my DD is very bright and will listen to reason now she is older. Her adolescent days were heartbreaking.
I have said on many occasions on mumsnet that the ideology is cult like. However few people want to support alternative views. I've been called a Terf myself.
I've employed transwomen but they were old school post surgery. One happy, one not. I'm also a prison visitor so I know a lot about TW in prisons. All of this was before the DD and her situation.