Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment

[GoogleWhacking]

news.sky.com/story/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-at-centre-of-olympic-gender-row-files-legal-complaint-over-online-harassment-13195264

She could have put this to bed by sharing DNA tests. I'm struggling to feel sympathy, although it must be horrid.

The people who make points like “Algeria is a country where people cannot transition,” or point out how conservative it is etc etc…

…somehow don’t have much to say about all the pictures of this guy in male clothing with hair uncovered. Or that he was permitted to play football with other boys. Who knew that Algeria’s become so accepting of (what a conservative country would view as) gender non-conforming behaviour?

And then you have his coach putting him on his shoulders. Even if Khelif is a thoroughly modern Millie, I can’t see his much older male coaches sharing that attitude.

Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/5138713-thread-4-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes

This current thread has an interview with a statement by someone who trains the boxer that there's an "issue with chromosomes." And implies has been reducing testosterone.

Still claims they're a woman though, which is abject lying.

I think it's possible that Khelif genuinely believes he's a woman and is therefore rightfully competing in the women's category. If he was brought up as female before finding out later that he was "male" he might simply not have accepted it.

Semenya genuinely seems to believe he's a woman, in spite of his testicles.

"For me I believe if you are a woman, you are a woman," Semenya told the BBC.

"I have realized I want to live my life and fight for what I think and I believe in myself. I don't care about the medical terms or what they tell me. Being born without a uterus or internal testicles. Those don't make me less of a woman. I am a woman and have a vagina just like any other woman."

www.outkick.com/sports/olympic-champ-says-being-born-with-internal-testicles-doesnt-make-me-less-of-a-woman

That's delusion - or at least, a refusal to believe the standard definition of male and female. He's clearly managed to rationalise the situation in his mind so that he can continue to believe he's a woman and therefore has been unfairly treated by the sporting authorities.

It may be that Khelif feels the same way. In that case, can he be called a cheat, if he genuinely believes he's female and entitled to be in the female category?

Even if that's the case, the people around him would know the truth, and would be egging him on for their own purposes (I mean the trainers and Algerian boxing authorities, not his family, who might also genuinely believe he's female).

I wonder when he was first told that he wasn't female? Might it only have been after the IBA tests?

As to him suing someone, if he's trying to sue people who have issued threats against him (eg death threats), he'll have a case. And he wouldn't need to prove that he's female.

But if he's trying to sue people who are calling him male, then he'll need to prove he's not, and that might not end well for him. That might be the reason he dropped his appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, because all his medical details would become public.

Women in Algeria don't have to cover their hair. They also don't have to wear traditionally female clothing. And kids do stuff like sneak out and play football when they should be inside doing their homework all the time, don't they? Why should kids in Algeria be any different?

The coach image - meh. She knows him well and just won a gold medal at the Olympic Games. It isn't a stranger.

It may be that Khelif feels the same way. In that case, can he be called a cheat, if he genuinely believes he's female and entitled to be in the female category?

He failed his first eligibility test in 2022. So yes he can.

I’m not sure of your logic. If the person has a vagina but also testes who gets to decide they are male and not female? Science says the simple presence of a Y chromosome does not make someone a man, just in the majority of cases. But not always.

this is the issue that the sporting world, and everyone else. needs to get to grips with. Intersex has existed as long as humans have, likely always competed in sports. Now science allows us to know there is over 40 variations of intersex , but doesn’t say if they are definitely male or female. And as such, neither you or I ger to classify them either.

so sporting authorities need to decide, what’s the rules for competing for intersex people. It clearly can’t be the simple presence of a Y chromosome alone. Maybe that coupled with testosterone levels, genitalia, puberty, but you get into some very private areas, and how do you know what puberty someone from rural Algeria or china went through

I think it’s very complex because intersex are not atypically male or female, that’s too simplistic, and in day to day life they can live and identify as they please, as we all can, but when it comes to sports, the authorities need to come up with some clear rules, and that’s always going to be hugely contentious and complex

its also important to note, some intersex people have both a vagina and a uterus, they can procreate, have a baby, but also have a Y chromosome, no one knows what category the boxers fall into , so no one should be saying they are a man and deluded, because 8ts hugely complex and neither athlete has given their private information out.

but they won’t be alone. All over the world intersex athletes will be competing., as they will habe been since time began. These two are not a never seen before phenomenon

this is the issue that the sporting world, and everyone else. needs to get to grips with. Intersex has existed as long as humans have, likely always competed in sports. Now science allows us to know there is over 40 variations of intersex , but doesn’t say if they are definitely male or female. And as such, neither you or I ger to classify them either.

This is total nonsense. All DSDs are male or female.

I think it’s very complex because intersex are not atypically male or female, that’s too simplistic, and in day to day life they can live and identify as they please, as we all can, but when it comes to sports, the authorities need to come up with some clear rules, and that’s always going to be hugely contentious and complex

It can be done - athletics, swimming, cycling and rugby are doing it. The competition was better for it. It's a political choice. For boxing the IOC chose to expose women to harm and to make the female category mixed sex.

"However the "cheat" comment can be defended if the individual knows they are male but they choose to enter a female competition."

If we are going to take the position, That sex is black and white i.e xy chromosome = male then surely the issue of cheating or not cheating should also be black and white. We might feel the IOC rules are a joke but they have not been broken here so she is not a cheat.

This boxer believes herself to be a woman, was raised as such and did not benefit from. Male entitlement etc. At some point she realised she had a DSD but (after much soul searching I'd imagine) still sees herself as a woman.

If all of that can be ignored and dismissed as ultimately irrelevant then it's a bit inconsistent to introduce a " spirit of cricket" argument for branding her a cheat.

We might feel the IOC rules are a joke but they have not been broken here so she is not a cheat.

They have an F on their passport, which they know to be a lie. This is what qualifies them for Olympic competition. So yes, they are cheating.

A big part of the issue I think is that all of this got tangled up in trans issues, when this isn't the case. It's stopped sensible discussions around the inclusion of people with DSD in women's contact sports. This isn't discriminatory, it's putting women's safety as paramount, as it should be in boxing. I can respect Imane as a woman if that's what she aligns with as this isn't just feelings as it is for some...but even disregarding the previous alleged tests, anyone with a pair of eyes can see that their body composition simply isn't one that would be achievable for a biological woman. The fact she isn't amazing at boxing used by some isn't relevant to this, as boxing is a set of skills on top of strength and fitness.

"They have an F on their passport, which they know to be a lie"

Did she change her passport to F to make her eligible or has it always shown F?

You feel that having F on your passport with xy chromosomes is a deliberate lie? The government of Algeria disagrees with you

The coaches are not nice kind equality lovers who praise fairness. They have masses to gain from playing the system. Those coaches new the IOC weakness and got their man through.

Nailed it

Since 2022, Khelif has know himself to be a biological man. Both him and the Algerian government have culpability knowing what's on the passport is false and using that to qualify for the Olympics.

No man has to enter the Olympics so they can beat up women in the name of sport. Khelif made the choice to do so.

Really, ok, link to the science that shows the parameters for deciding that.

"No man has to enter the Olympics so they can beat up women in the name of sport"

She didn't enter to beat up women. She's boxing other women since childhood. It's not like she found out oooh I have male chromosomes let's start boxing so I can beat up women

He has known that he's a man since 2022 at the absolute latest. So that's exactly what he did do.

This is comprehensive

Whoops image didn't link - on my phone

If the person has a vagina but also testes who gets to decide they are male and not female?

If Khelif has 46XY 5-ARD, which is what is widely suspected, then he doesn't have a vagina. It's the prescence of testes that makes a person like that male. The defininition of sex is which of the two types of gametes the person produces, or would produce if everythinig was working properly. Presence of testes mean male.

Almost all people with DSDs are either male or female, because they have either testes or ovaries, but often don't have clearly defined external genitalia to match.

when it comes to sports, the authorities need to come up with some clear rules, and that’s always going to be hugely contentious and complex

If the athlete has male testes, and produces and uses testoerone in the normal male range - and especially if they went through puberty with testosterone having the normal male effect on their bodies - then they should not be eligible for the female category.

It's possible to determine this nowadays. If the simple chromosome test shows they are not the sex they appear to be, then further investigation can find out what DSD they have, and whether it gives them male advantage in sport.

The DSD conditions might be complex, but it's straightforward to find out whether the athelte has male advantage.

some intersex people have both a vagina and a uterus, they can procreate, have a baby, but also have a Y chromosome.

In that case they are female.

no one knows what category the boxers fall into

No, but the reason that competitors and their coaches started to complain to the IBA over the last few years about these two boxers, was because they appeared to have male characteristics, ie were far stronger than the range of strength in female boxers.

That's why there is widespread suspicion that they have a DSD that means they are male and have male advantage.

so no one should be saying they are a man and deluded,

I said that Semenya was deluded, because we know he is male and yet he continues to believe he's female. I said that it might be the same for Khelif.

The fact that the IOC refuses to test the boxers is what is causing this fuss. Proper tests would establish once and for all whether they are eligible for the female category or not. If they are not, the authorities don't need to reveal the reason for their ineligibility, simply to say, as the IBA did, that they are ineligible.

The fact that neither boxer went through with an appeal to the CAS over the IBA test results in 2023 stongly suggests they knew they wouldn't win their case.

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/read/what-are-sexes

This is a good explanation of the scientific definition of the two sexes - which type of gametes the person produces, or potentially could produce.

Frasers

Intersex DSDs are a small proportion of DSDs. They are called intersex DSDs because unlike with DSDs in general, the external genitals are ambiguous at birth. It is not because the babies themselves are intersex. Nobody is. All DSDs affect either male or female embryos.

Caster Semenya has the DSD 46XY, 5-ARD. This was part of his evidence to CAS so it is public knowledge. This condition only affects males, so that is the proof that CS is male.
46XY is the normal male karyotype. 5-ARD refers to a deficiency in a hormone called 5-alpha-reductase which combines with testosterone made by the male embryo to form the androgen DHT (dihydrotestosterone), which is needed to form the external male genital structures.
DHT:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557634/#:~:text=DHT%20plays%20a%20vital%20role,facial%2C%20and%20pubic%20hair%20growth

Because of this deficiency, external male genital structures do not form fully. A micropenis + a structure superficially resembling a vagina (it is a blind pocket or pouch) along with what would have been sacs for the testicles in a normal case, are what would be externally visible in such cases, hence the incorrect assignment at birth of female sex. Testes are present and internal. They produce normal male levels of testosterone and later in life, the boy goes through a near-normal puberty.

CS has said in his autobiography that he has a vagina and also that he had vaginoplasty, which would back this up.

So yes, CS is male and the presence of a vagina/vagina -like body part is not always conclusive.

Your link doesn’t work and science does not agree with you across the spectrum.

Exactly. The IOC are taking a political and ideological position on this.

They also want to allow trans-identified males to compete with women - as they did in the women's weightlifting in Tokyo.

So they don't want any clear, scientifically-based, rules that would define eligibility in the female category.