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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment

544 replies

GoogleWhacking · 10/08/2024 22:26

news.sky.com/story/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-at-centre-of-olympic-gender-row-files-legal-complaint-over-online-harassment-13195264

She could have put this to bed by sharing DNA tests. I'm struggling to feel sympathy, although it must be horrid.

OP posts:
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21
334bu · 11/08/2024 08:58

I wonder what kind of case has been filed. France has very strict rules concerning rights to privacy and this might be the case here.
This particular law can result in strange cases: a few years ago a man filed suit against his employee when she posted a video online showing him covertly filming her undressing. Unfortunately, I never found out what the final legal judgement was.

ObsidianTree · 11/08/2024 08:59

Her winning gold and the other xy boxer winning gold only goes to prove that people had a point... They have won because of their XY advantage. If they take part in the next Olympics they will both probably win again. Unless more XY boxers take part of course....

RethinkingLife · 11/08/2024 09:14

Catsmere · 11/08/2024 03:26

Oh, now we're apparently unable to know a man when we see one? That's a familiar argument, now where have I heard it before ... 🤔

Is it this familiar vision and argument?

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https://youtu.be/PoLLgzdPkss?si=1TG7fhQWjOtCW5ft

AutumnCrow · 11/08/2024 09:16

how do you know what puberty someone from rural Algeria or china went through

I'm not concerned with their socio-cultural puberty. I'm concerned with their endocrinal puberty and whether the boxers benefited from the relative advantages that accrues to them, within the context of women's sport, of having had a male puberty or not.

Zita60 · 11/08/2024 09:19

Frasers · 11/08/2024 08:57

Your link doesn’t work and science does not agree with you across the spectrum.

The link works for me. It's to an article on the National Library of Medicine website, called "Biochemistry, Dihydrotestosterone". It's a scientific article, published on a science website.

The United States National Library of Medicine (NLM), operated by the United States federal government, is the world's largest medical library.[5]
Located in Bethesda, Maryland, the NLM is an institute within the National Institutes of Health. Its collections include more than seven million books, journals, technical reports, manuscripts, microfilms, photographs, and images on medicine and related sciences, including some of the world's oldest and rarest works.

From Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Library_of_Medicine

And sex isn't a spectrum, if that's what you mean.

Photograph - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photograph

dementedpixie · 11/08/2024 09:22

I've seen these two charts that set out which DSDs affect which sexes. They are either male or female, not an in-between sex.

Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment
Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment
borntobequiet · 11/08/2024 09:22

If the person has a vagina but also testes who gets to decide they are male and not female?

If they have testes it won’t be a vagina. It might look a bit like a vagina externally, but it won’t be one.

RethinkingLife · 11/08/2024 09:22

Walkden · 11/08/2024 08:43

"No man has to enter the Olympics so they can beat up women in the name of sport"

She didn't enter to beat up women. She's boxing other women since childhood. It's not like she found out oooh I have male chromosomes let's start boxing so I can beat up women

As a matter of interest, if a young female family member passes through puberty without beginning menstruation, how long do you think the parents would leave it before consulting a doctor?

If you're training at a national level and have access to their medical team, how many minutes do you think you'd be into your

  • first medical before you're asked about your menstrual cycle
  • coaching schedule planning before you were asked about your menstrual cycle.
Snowypeaks · 11/08/2024 09:25

Frasers · 11/08/2024 08:57

Your link doesn’t work and science does not agree with you across the spectrum.

Here's the link again explaining what DHT is.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557634/#:~:text=DHT%20plays%20a%20vital%20role,facial%2C%20and%20pubic%20hair%20growth

I have described what 46XY 5-ARD is. That is known and accepted science.
Can you explain what you mean when you say "science does not agree with me across the spectrum", please?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557634#:~:text=DHT%20plays%20a%20vital%20role,facial%2C%20and%20pubic%20hair%20growth

PatatiPatatras · 11/08/2024 09:26

If IK found out he was male in 2022, he cheated in 2024 regardless of the IOC endeavours to provide cover.

I for one want to see this in court.

The IOC should hang its head in shame.

CleftChin · 11/08/2024 09:26

She didn't enter to beat up women. She's boxing other women since childhood. It's not like she found out oooh I have male chromosomes let's start boxing so I can beat up women

No, but do you think that national coaches, wanting to boost the national team, might go looking around for people who are plausibly female, but actually male for these purposes?

Given that some countries and coaches have habitually dosed children with steroids, and train them from very young in ways that are pretty bloody close to torture, do you really think that going and finding children with natural advantages like internal testicles because of a DSD isn't entirely likely?

TheKeatingFive · 11/08/2024 09:26

The difference between the sexes is determined by whether your body is set up on a pathway to make small gametes (sperm) or large gametes (eggs).

While DSDs can create confusion via the appearance of genitalia, particularly prior to puberty - on expert examination, it will be clear what sex someone is and what has disrupted normal development.

WickedSerious · 11/08/2024 09:26

Frasers · 11/08/2024 08:57

Your link doesn’t work and science does not agree with you across the spectrum.

I think I've seen you on Question Time.

Helleofabore · 11/08/2024 09:29

She didn't enter to beat up women. She's boxing other women since childhood. It's not like she found out oooh I have male chromosomes let's start boxing so I can beat up women.

I believe they started boxing as a late teenager. Not quite the ‘from childhood’ story being spun.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 09:29

Arguably someone has broken privacy laws (I note here that where they are located matters because it depends under what jurisdiction they fall). Information that was not public possibly has become public.

The IBA were in a difficult position, because they had previously ruled one way and were asked to clarify that information. The question is did someone reveal more than they should?

This doesn't take away from the question of fairness in sport though and safety reasons to be asking those questions.

In the UK you could potentially argue a defence based on it 'being in the public interest' to make a point about it (The likes of JKR are almost certainly fine in UK law).

Then there's harassment. Harassment can be going further than making a public interest case. This involves levels of contact and the amount of talking about the subject and how personal it gets. There's a difference between talking about someone's chromosomes and testosterone on a technical level and then talking about say how hairy someone is or how they've bulges in certain places or particular feminine/masculine personality traits. Are these things relevant to ability to box is the basic point here I think.

Has harassment occurred? I'd argue it probably has. Is there a good reason to still discuss this case - yes it falls under the public interest - and there's are ways to do this without being harassing.

Crucially I would argue here that the IOC have failed everyone involved though. They have not dealt with the initial issue which has left the two boxers in question exposed. They have failed to protect them. Protecting them might have included banning them from the word go because the IOC should have seen this issue was going to blow up and they should have been prepared for it. Saying they are female cos of their passports was never going to be sufficient. They needed to have scientific evidence to back up why their position of 'ending invasive sex tests' was acceptable, safe and fair. They needed to have scientific evidence to back up why athletes with a testosterone level due to medical reasons higher than accepted level under anti-doping rules was safe and fair in a contact sport when non contact sports have already ruled it is not and crucially have been backed by the international sport arbitration court about this. They needed to have a good argument about why a sex test is invasive but accepted anti-doping tests are not invasive because the IOC backs anti-doping and the position about sex testing is incoherent as an argument next to it.

The IOC could have stopped two athletes becoming sucked into a huge international debate. They choose not. They have argued they were on the side of those two athletes but their position was always going to result in this situation and it was entirely foreseeable. That's not protecting athletes. That's setting them up deliberately to make a point and to hell with the IOCs responsibilities.

This will only intensify the debate on this too. An harassment claim isn't the solution. The solution is in demonstrating there's not a problem on both an individual and wider scientific level.

The funny thing is, winning the gold is likely to be counter productive in the longer run, because all it does is reinforce the feeling of unfairness. That just reinforces determination in the long run to demonstrate a scientific problem.

These boxers might find themselves in a few years time trying to argue they won fairly but wouldn't be eligible because of a rule change which is brought in for fairness and safety.

They been handed a poison chalice by the IOC.

An harassment claim is extremely unwise under the circumstances even if it's thought of as likely winnable. Lawyers are, again, using the situation for their own gain not the overall best interests of the individual concerned. Precisely because the IOCs position is unlikely to be tenable in the long run.

I feel sorry for the two involved. The IOC has let them down badly. All entirely preventable and foreseeable after Caster.

It's appalling.

Snowypeaks · 11/08/2024 09:30

Helleofabore · 11/08/2024 09:29

She didn't enter to beat up women. She's boxing other women since childhood. It's not like she found out oooh I have male chromosomes let's start boxing so I can beat up women.

I believe they started boxing as a late teenager. Not quite the ‘from childhood’ story being spun.

Yes, 17 years old. Was spotted while playing football.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 09:35

CleftChin · 11/08/2024 09:26

She didn't enter to beat up women. She's boxing other women since childhood. It's not like she found out oooh I have male chromosomes let's start boxing so I can beat up women

No, but do you think that national coaches, wanting to boost the national team, might go looking around for people who are plausibly female, but actually male for these purposes?

Given that some countries and coaches have habitually dosed children with steroids, and train them from very young in ways that are pretty bloody close to torture, do you really think that going and finding children with natural advantages like internal testicles because of a DSD isn't entirely likely?

Yes. Again the IOC could have cracked down on this. It's not about individuals. Finding 'women' who had certain medical issues was done by sporting bodies. It exploitation. We know that international female athletes take their cycle into account as part of training as a routine thing. We know that they may make efforts to stop that cycle. If you don't have a cycle in the first place this also raises questions that would be on the radar of coaches. Cultural differences over the acceptability of asking these questions are not relevant by the time you get to international level.

ruffler45 · 11/08/2024 09:38

Couple of phrases spring to mind -

Sometimes if you stick your head above the parapet it gets fired at.

If you cannot stand the heat stay out of the kitchen..

ruffler45 · 11/08/2024 09:40

Is the next step by the IOC unisex olympics? if so that is the end of the olympics...

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 11/08/2024 09:44

Delphinium20 · 11/08/2024 02:30

Simmer down, any, can you get yourself to a pound cake?

The truth if the matter is Imane refused to prove Imane was female despite 2x testing by wrestling bodies and, because most of the world has working eyes, we don't believe Imane. Imane can stop this controversy right now with a cheek swab but, funnily, Imane won't consider that. IOC says a passport is enough but a lot of people know that a piece of paper doesn't prove someone's sex. We say he because that is what we see.

Yes, I find it astonishing so many people seem in favour of compelling speech and forcing people to lie about what they see.

Even if this time it's a position you agree with, are people so foolish that they don't realize next time it won't be? Maybe those complaining are from countries without human rights where the rich and powerful can suppress free speech in the rest of the population, fortunately many (most?) of those complaining are in countries with free speech.

I see a fully male body with male reach, hip to shoulder ratio and additional punch power. I'm looking forward to seeing the cheek swab results. From an independent, reputable lab that can't be 'bought'. Plus also the additional evidence that there is no hormone advantage nor physical advantage from the difference in skeletal shape to the other females.

TheKeatingFive · 11/08/2024 09:46

ruffler45 · 11/08/2024 09:40

Is the next step by the IOC unisex olympics? if so that is the end of the olympics...

Hard to conclude anything else, isn't it?

If an F on a passport is enough for eligibility. It's pretty easy for a male to get his passport changed to 'F' in plenty of countries.

Snowypeaks · 11/08/2024 09:51

Frasers

And any lurkers - it's important to understand that a person's sex is not a sort of totting up of how many or which kind of sex characteristics they end up with.
Sex is which of the two types of gamete they are supposed to be set up to produce (all being well).

Sex is determined in humans by the SRY gene. This decides which of the two sexual development pathways the baby will follow, ie which sexual organs and characteristics it will develop. If all goes as it should in the womb, you end up with a baby with unambiguous outer genital structures and the complete internal physiology for its sex. But sexual development is a complex process, dependent on several different triggers operating in the correct sequence and it can go wrong or be incomplete, which is why DSDs occur. But the specialists can still work out whether the baby is male or female and the parents can be advised accordingly.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 09:53

TheKeatingFive · 11/08/2024 09:46

Hard to conclude anything else, isn't it?

If an F on a passport is enough for eligibility. It's pretty easy for a male to get his passport changed to 'F' in plenty of countries.

How is that going to work if a female brings a discrimination case to the court of sport arbitration citing science and unfairness and unacceptable levels of risk?

Which possibly will happen at some point.

Iwasafool · 11/08/2024 09:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

How would you feel if you have been brought up as female, always thought you were female, didn't have male genitalia and someone did a test (no one seems to have said what the test was and what it showed) and told you that you were male. Would you suddenly think Oh yes I'm a man or would you still think you were a woman.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 11/08/2024 09:53

I'm seeing a grift, attempt to remain in the spotlight and attract money from rich misogynists. There's obviously quite a lot to go around.

The idea that this one boxer is able to control people's free speech on the Internet is breathtakingly entitled.

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