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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment

544 replies

GoogleWhacking · 10/08/2024 22:26

news.sky.com/story/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-at-centre-of-olympic-gender-row-files-legal-complaint-over-online-harassment-13195264

She could have put this to bed by sharing DNA tests. I'm struggling to feel sympathy, although it must be horrid.

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PatatiPatatras · 15/08/2024 12:45

CautiousLurker · 15/08/2024 10:40

She’s a professor of developmental biology - well known, well cited on most social media platforms as well as interviewed in the press. Emma Hilton. Feel free to message/DM her and ask her yourself, as I did - she’s always been very forthcoming when people are asking science questions.

I don’t need her to send me a billion papers on the subject - she’s read them all and peer reviewed most of them, she teaches, she researches and writes them. If she states that Swyers is a male DSD because they lack ovaries (ie the ability to produce large gametes) and have XY chromosomes I will take her word for it.

Thanks I'll ask there.
And if it is Emma Hilton then I'll also taken her word for it.

Cailleach1 · 15/08/2024 12:45

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/08/2024 12:12

There remains on Netflix a documentary about the murder of Sophie Tocson Du Plantier, a Frenchwoman (Sophie: A Murder in West Cork), who was living in Ireland. It has to be said the evidence was circumstantially overwhelming to find a local man guilty of the murder, though the Irish justice system threw the case out.

The Family of the French woman took the case further in France - where after a trial in his absence - the man was found guilty. In France, the feelings of the victim's family and friends are taken into account and provide more weight when making a decision to convict.

The decison to convict in France, did not have significance elsewhere, in spite of appeals for his extradition.....and recently the man ( odds on who was the culprit) died without ever being the recipient of justice.

Edited

Yes, I remember the French court found Ian Bailey guilty. He was an English man who had moved to West Cork in 1991, and poor Sophie was murdered there in 1996. Bailey worked as a freelance journalist and was first at the murder scene to report the murder.

There were questions over how the investigation by the Gardaí in Cork was carried out, but he was never charged in Ireland. After the French found him guilty, Ian Bailey had to stay in Ireland as there was a possibility he could have been extradited to France if he went elsewhere. The Irish court had blocked his extradition from Ireland.

I can’t see the US extraditing Musk. Even if the alleged complaint wasn’t spurious.

PinkTonic · 15/08/2024 13:22

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 12:02

"Therefore 'XY female' is a colloquialism for people where it would seem strange or cruel socially to consider them men, but technically they are male, no?"
I think this may come down to whether male is defined by the presence of a Y chromosome alone or whether it is actually defined by the presence of a SRY gene. If you base it on the SRY gene this would make Swyers a female DSD.

I think the argument is largely academic though. In terms of female sports its males who are virilised at puberty and can respond to testosterone who are the main issue.

This was also my understanding. Initially Swyer’s was considered a male DSD because XY but now is usually considered a female DSD because of the absence of the SRY gene. I have read an awful lot of bollocks in various places over the past couple of weeks though, and Emma Hilton is a clear and trustworthy source.

duc748 · 15/08/2024 14:15

Isn't Swyers just a distraction from the issue at hand? And people bring it up so they can say, see, it's complicated? Male and female is not always straightforward, etc. It's clear it has nothing to do with male advantage, which is what's being talked about here.

BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator · 15/08/2024 14:38

duc748 · 15/08/2024 14:15

Isn't Swyers just a distraction from the issue at hand? And people bring it up so they can say, see, it's complicated? Male and female is not always straightforward, etc. It's clear it has nothing to do with male advantage, which is what's being talked about here.

Yes it is irrelevant, but imo it is somewhat handy to go over (again and again! 😩) so that people are informed when they're arguing about it

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 14:47

duc748 · 15/08/2024 14:15

Isn't Swyers just a distraction from the issue at hand? And people bring it up so they can say, see, it's complicated? Male and female is not always straightforward, etc. It's clear it has nothing to do with male advantage, which is what's being talked about here.

When it became clear that both boxers had XY chromosomes I think the activists looked at the charts of DSD conditions and found the one with XY chromosomes that was described as a female condition. Bonus points for the fact that some women with Swyers have given birth so they use the "i thought you said only females with XX could give birth" as an attempted gotcha.

RedToothBrush · 15/08/2024 15:58

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 14:47

When it became clear that both boxers had XY chromosomes I think the activists looked at the charts of DSD conditions and found the one with XY chromosomes that was described as a female condition. Bonus points for the fact that some women with Swyers have given birth so they use the "i thought you said only females with XX could give birth" as an attempted gotcha.

I do kinda like the ridiculousness of the Gotcha Olympics against Sanity.

PinkTonic · 15/08/2024 16:18

spannasaurus · 15/08/2024 14:47

When it became clear that both boxers had XY chromosomes I think the activists looked at the charts of DSD conditions and found the one with XY chromosomes that was described as a female condition. Bonus points for the fact that some women with Swyers have given birth so they use the "i thought you said only females with XX could give birth" as an attempted gotcha.

Yes absolutely. I regret allowing myself to be sucked into that conversation. It’s irrelevant.

Motorina · 15/08/2024 18:06

I think Swyers is a true edge case. I would probably put it in the female bucket because the reproductive system is structured around gestating an egg (and can in fact do so, albeit with medical support) but I understand why others would define it otherwise.

Certainly I have no issue considering people with Swyers as socially female.

It’s not relevant to either of the boxers though. Both have clearly been virilised and don’t have Swyers

PatatiPatatras · 15/08/2024 18:28

See I really don't like these blanket statements. I know I'm distracting the conversation but it is a mighty leap for someone to go from "an individual with swyers can gestate with support" to "individuals with swyers have a system structured around gestation".

One does not imply the other in an edge case and this is the prefect red herring.

Helleofabore · 15/08/2024 22:21

Helleofabore · 15/08/2024 07:28

Well, quite. I mean, if Khelif is still excluded from IBA, WBC and ECB bouts, what events are left for Khelif to compete in?

Well, forget about a boxing future, I believe the future is modeling.

x.com/collinrugg/status/1824117732859838815?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

lcakethereforeIam · 16/08/2024 00:12

Pwoar! Not just his punch that's stunning!

My mum used to have a chair upholstered in that material.

annejumps · 16/08/2024 00:35

It is still amazing to me how many people take literally the idea that makeup, jewelry, and clothing choices are what make you a woman. Beyond just indicating that you might be 'presenting as' one.

Lolajane80 · 16/08/2024 00:49

Frasers · 11/08/2024 07:54

I’m not sure of your logic. If the person has a vagina but also testes who gets to decide they are male and not female? Science says the simple presence of a Y chromosome does not make someone a man, just in the majority of cases. But not always.

this is the issue that the sporting world, and everyone else. needs to get to grips with. Intersex has existed as long as humans have, likely always competed in sports. Now science allows us to know there is over 40 variations of intersex , but doesn’t say if they are definitely male or female. And as such, neither you or I ger to classify them either.

so sporting authorities need to decide, what’s the rules for competing for intersex people. It clearly can’t be the simple presence of a Y chromosome alone. Maybe that coupled with testosterone levels, genitalia, puberty, but you get into some very private areas, and how do you know what puberty someone from rural Algeria or china went through

I think it’s very complex because intersex are not atypically male or female, that’s too simplistic, and in day to day life they can live and identify as they please, as we all can, but when it comes to sports, the authorities need to come up with some clear rules, and that’s always going to be hugely contentious and complex

its also important to note, some intersex people have both a vagina and a uterus, they can procreate, have a baby, but also have a Y chromosome, no one knows what category the boxers fall into , so no one should be saying they are a man and deluded, because 8ts hugely complex and neither athlete has given their private information out.

but they won’t be alone. All over the world intersex athletes will be competing., as they will habe been since time began. These two are not a never seen before phenomenon

So much of your comment is absolute nonsense. Someone with a dsd is always a male or a female.

A female with swyer syndrome- which is extremely rare, is infertile . The only way they can ever give birth is through egg donation. They don't produce eggs .

Arconialiving · 16/08/2024 00:55

annejumps · 16/08/2024 00:35

It is still amazing to me how many people take literally the idea that makeup, jewelry, and clothing choices are what make you a woman. Beyond just indicating that you might be 'presenting as' one.

I know - biology has nothing to do with it. It's all about how we dress.

annejumps · 16/08/2024 01:01

Arconialiving · 16/08/2024 00:55

I know - biology has nothing to do with it. It's all about how we dress.

It's like when I realized people were seriously saying humans can change sex.

StealthSpinach · 16/08/2024 03:45

Any chance of a modelling screenshot? Thanks if possible!

PatatiPatatras · 16/08/2024 04:09

Here you go.

Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment
StealthSpinach · 16/08/2024 05:00

@PatatiPatatras - thank you!

Have to love those pink flower earrings and heavy duty filters - they maketh the XY woman…

Gorgonemilezola · 16/08/2024 06:06

Helleofabore · 15/08/2024 22:21

Well, forget about a boxing future, I believe the future is modeling.

x.com/collinrugg/status/1824117732859838815?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

OMG, OMG, so it's totes true that boxing can change the shape of your nose. I thought it usually meant your nose was flattened or knocked skewiff by the punches, but I'm sure the odd punch could make your nose straighter and slimmer. Still can't get rid of your Adam's apple though.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2024 08:32

Leo Varadkar is still determined to prove how much he hates women I see. Good show Leo.

How's the career going?

CocoapuffPuff · 16/08/2024 08:40

Helleofabore · 15/08/2024 22:21

Well, forget about a boxing future, I believe the future is modeling.

x.com/collinrugg/status/1824117732859838815?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

He'd get loads of catwalk work but as a male. He's very handsome.

TheKeatingFive · 16/08/2024 08:50

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2024 08:32

Leo Varadkar is still determined to prove how much he hates women I see. Good show Leo.

How's the career going?

Just appalling. What an awful man. 🤦‍♀️

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/08/2024 08:51

PatatiPatatras · 16/08/2024 04:09

Here you go.

I get the feeling that photo has been hastily put together to dispel speculation. The Paris 2024 logo is on the lanyard. The instagram photos showing Khelif in male attire and looking every inch the atletic male have now been removed.

PatatiPatatras · 16/08/2024 08:56

@Shortshriftandlethal It is a fully staged video of which I have taken stills for those who don't X/ tweet. No image was provided.

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