Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

[StrumpersPlunkett]

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

@0Oo

Zdeněk Koube was not trans, but a man with underdeveloped genitalia (due to a genetic defect) that caused him to be misidentified as a girl at birth. So he was competing unfairly but didn't know it, and did acknowledge it in the end. He lived and competed as his true sex in later life.

To misquote Inigo Montoya,
I do not think your post means what you think it means.

How many times does it have to be said that people with DSD's are not trans and how many times do those with DSD's have to ask to be left out and not used in the trans argument? Why oh why do posters like you @0Oo completely ignore the wishes of those people who have DSD's and try to use their condition to further your ideology? Do you have no respect?

People with DSD's are either male or female, DSD's are sex specific. Now leave them alone.

'Identifying as' trans is not the problem, being male is.

Indeed, a woman identifying as a transman would be a different issue. Though I would be as wary of a woman choosing to take large doses of testosterone as I would of one taking cocaine or alcohol in a work setting.

Yes, I'm unclear what dreadful "road" we're supposedly going down here for presenting the facts relating to women, single sex spaces & services, and the attempted dismantling by some men (with the aid of supposedly "kind" women) of those spaces and legal rights, mostly under the radar, without even parliamentary scrutiny in most cases, and without the consent of or any discussion with the demographic those spaces were set up for . Not to mention questioning the largely irreversible use of puberty blockers on gender non-conforming and often same sex attracted adolescents, and questioning a doctrine which claims some men can be women if they "feel" they are based on "feminine" sex stereotypes, and women who don't agree are called bigots.

What is the end point of this "road", I wonder? I don't suppose you're trying to claim we're all "Nazis" are you?

We're not the ones doing irreversible medical experiments on children, love.

Never forget, the man who did one of the first 'sex change' operations got a job as a doctor in Dachau later, doing experiments on human beings. Even before 'gender' was invented, some of the people who played with ideas that later fed into it were pretty nasty and cynical.

There is so muddled thinking in that article it's hard to know where to start.
It sounds as if the Czech athlete was male with a male DSD. So should not have been in female competition. Do you wonder why a 13-yr-old girl was asked by a strange doctor to go to an athletics meet with his 18-yr-old daughter, also a stranger? I think the doctor knew or suspected Koubek had a DSD.

Koubek always felt different and in fact was - he would not have experienced periods, but may have had nocturnal emissions and testosterone surges. I'm happy for him that he got surgery that was right for him and found love. I also respect him for not wanting to carry on competing in women's competitions.

FYI it was gay people (predominantly men) who were sent to the concentration camps by the Nazis. Cross-dressers could apply for a card which certified them as heterosexual and protected them from arrest for homosexuality. The Nazis were cool with transvestites.

This guy was a male with a DSD. Men who claim to be women (MCW) very rarely have DSDs. In any case, MCW and men with DSDs are all men, not women and should not compete against women and girls. With virtually no training, this man trounced the women he raced against. That's male athletic performance advantage.

Sex testing is only necessary because men try to masquerade as women. If they didn't, women would not have had to undergo the humiliation of genital inspections. Sex testing using DNA from a cheek swab was standard for a time but "sex passports" were stopped in the 90s by people who wanted males with DSDs in female competition. A return to sex passports would solve all the problems.

Is it evil to check someone's age or income for means-tested benefits? Is it evil to check whether a house buyer already owns a flat for establishing eligibility for a first time buyers' assistance scheme? We check because some people cheat.

Vegetarianism is evil because Hitler was a vegetarian, right?

I know this is a derail and I apologise to the OP, but I couldn't let that nonsense go, for the sake of lurkers.

Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk

I have yet to verify the information, but it was mentioned on another thread that there's at least 1 man competing in the women's boxing at the current Olympics. If that's so, we will be incredibly lucky if that doesn't end with a woman paralysed, brain damaged or dead.

I have no idea what the article about Koubek is intended to prove, because it appears to be paywalled. But as OOo mentions his physical advantages and outrlright says he should t have played on the women's team I'm struggling to see how that can possibly be an argument in favour of men playing on women's teams.

@RedToothBrush We have data that trans identifying prisoners have rates of sexually related offences higher than the general male prison population. Yet we are not permitted to talk about this because this offends law abiding trans people.

It's like that saying, "The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad." We can add to this, "The worst thing about trans sexual offences is that they make trans people look bad."

Correction to my above post: two male boxers.

Really? This was posted on another thread

I would openly support a push for a gender neutral addition (not replacement), or for the male toilets to be reconfigured so the cubicles are gender neutral and come first, with a door to the male only urinal area.

Reconfiguring the men’s toilets is a brilliant suggestion, LittleLittleRex. It would take up no extra space, or very little if a couple of extra cubicles were added. It could protect disabled people from having their toilets taken over as gender-neutral.

This would be much better than mixed sex rows of individual cubicles containing washbasins. The queues are twice as long because you spend time washing your hands there instead of at communal basins. All the problems of mixed-sex spaces remain, eg threatening behaviour by men, a woman being pushed into a cubicle and assaulted (this has happened), men masturbating next door, etc.

Which thread is that, Dollybird?

This was on the Olympics question thread https://reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes

How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women?

The distinction is unnecessary.

All you need to ask is: how many women are assaulted by men?

We all know that answer to that.

That's why single sex spaces exist. That's why safeguarding exists.

Thats why all men need to stay out of women's single sex spaces. And trans women are men.

This one (sorry, can't figure out links in the app)

It's this one.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5127123-to-think-its-completely-and-utterly-unacceptable-for-men-to-compete-in-womens-sports
96%, yay.

It's body dysphoria not dysmorphia, though they usually have that too.
What are your thoughts on self ID?

How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women?

How many women are assaulted by male left-handed philatelists? Should we let them in?

The OP of this thread seemed to want to talk specifically about Body dysmorphic disorder aka dysmorphia. Dysmorphia is a recognised mental health condition (similar to anorexia) that manifests itself as dissatisfaction with some aspect of the body, including sex-specific characteristics - also including stuff like wanting healthy limbs amputated.

Gender dysphoria is all about feelings. It is also a mental health condition - again, like anorexia.

Both of them are best treated with talking therapies.

Some men who would include themselves under the trans umbrella are in neither category. Not sure about women.

The distinction between them is worth noting in that although all of us (I think) agree that legs, breasts, penises etc exist, many of us do not believe that gender exists.

So it's a question of taking your pick between a mental health condition centered around dislike of your physical body and a mental health condition centered around a wish to conform to a set of sex stereotypes.

And those men with different agendas.

Ah well,at least you're trying.

What is the difference in the experience for a non consenting woman being asked to undress in front of a man who says he identifies as a woman and sincerely means it, and a man who says it but does not mean it?

Why should that woman's life be dictated by what may or may not be happening in a man's head?

And why should the price of a woman's access to any space or service be providing a man with his wanted experience of using her?

Please, explain to me how this can be ethical unless you have a deeply held believe that to be born female means you owe a life of service and subordination to people who are born male?

In which case it makes a bit of a nonsense of minding who identifies as what: your decisions are being predicated entirely on the reality of sex.

As far as I know you always have the choice to chose not to be examined.

Can I just clarify?

Your response to a non consenting woman in need of medical care, having two smirking men who are health care providers in a position of responsibility, one of whom identifies as a woman, using her for their jollies and enjoying the power over her while she's in a state of undress to receive that care, is that she always had the option to give up her access to care and treatment?

I'd like to go back to a time when voyeurs and exhibitionists were treated as sex criminals and as people displaying behavior that carries a risk of escalation, without any reference to their costume choices.