Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

[StrumpersPlunkett]

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

It’s interesting that you’re looking for a “safe space” on an anonymous forum but you also think women shouldn’t have access to male-free safe spaces in real life.

As far as I know you always have the choice to chose not to be examined.

Apparently there are exemptions the Equality Act that stop trans people from examining you in this situation where there are reasonable grounds that being trans could be problematic for the patient. I think wikipedia can help us here.

But again how would I know if she was trans and passed.

If you ask for a female then you should not be presented with a transwoman whether they pass or not and if you are then whoever has done that is acting against the wishes of the patient and I would sue the fucking arse off them.

So you presume the women who say they are followed whenever they need the loo are lying?

Why? because women are always liars? or because women are too stupid to observe what is going on and report it accurately? and btw, if it was a transwoman, it was indeed a man (identifying as a transwoman). That is what transwomen are.

@NameChangedForThisDiscussion

thank you for sharing your horrific experience with us all. You’re exactly who I’m fighting for when I say “no” to allowing men to enter women’s spaces.

This.
Feminism says that a woman is any female with any feelings, characteristics, preferences, skills, feelings about her body, appearance etc.

Genderism says that a woman is a male or female person with an unspecified feeling/character etc. As is a man, incidentally, or non-binary person. There doesn't actually seem to be any way to distinguish between these people because what anyone actually means by these words is never defined, even a little bit.
(Actually some do say that a feminine person is a woman, masculine people are men etc, but clearly this has its own issues! )

As for shelters, or intimate exams, then I thought that if a women requested female to exam them, then we'd get a female. I would not expect to see a male. But again how would I know if she was trans and passed. How could you know? What are going to do? Have chromosome test kits at the door?

Well you could expect men to have the capacity to respect women and boundaries. You don't seem to think very much of men with TQ identities, and that a man will always wish to seek to get his hands intimately on a non consenting woman, which is of course sexual assault. And in this sense, premeditated and malicious knowing that it's through deceit, wishing for the experience of using her body in a way that other men are denied.

And there need to be legal boundaries around this, as there are to manage other antisocial behaviours that harm others, like mugging or car theft. Shrugging and just saying you can't stop them just abandons women and enables men. While having absolutely zero expectations of them.

> But neither of us has the right to consent on behalf of other women

Yep. You are all right about this. None of us have the right to wave anybodies rights away.

You have mixed up the idea of consent and rights.

Consent can only be given willingly by someone able to do so; rights are given by government, and can clash with others rights. We, as a society cannot consent for others who are able to do so, but can challenge and question rights.

For example, if the government do say the men with the PC of GR, or with a GRC can use womens public toilets, i am entitled to challenging that right.

Most "trans women" do not pass. Very obviously. And it's obvious to most of us because a) it's actually extremely difficult in reality to "feminise",or I should say, de-sex, an adult male appearance beyond the superficial, which is one of the big reasons there's a push to puberty blockers in teens b) being able to correctly identify who are the males and who are the females is a cognitive skill that most people develop when babies - facial pattern recognition, for instance, is one of the first skills we learn (animals also distinguish really, really easily) Also c) most women are VERY aware of who is male and who is female and need to be for our own safety. There are also really obvious markers like gait, which you can spot at 50 paces.

It's fond fantasy to imagine otherwise, though a frequent argument by those who live by fantasy.

I'm sorry, I don't want to come across as annoying, but I do not know what PC, GR, or TQ mean. Can you help?

One of the women that called Terf Talk last week was being examined and the male doctor brought in a male to chaperone and the chaperone didn't introdue themselves, stood so that the woman didn't see his face and then smirked as he left the room.

She didn't report it as she'd likely be kicked out off consultant's list and as she had a very serious long term condition, she needs the expertise of the doctor to carry on living.

It is fucking disgraceful that this is happening.

If you haven't heard of LGBTQ I think maybe you need to read round a bit.

> LGBTQ

Got it.

PC = Protected Characteristic as per the Equality Act. GR = Gender Reassignment. TQ - Transgender and Queer, as in LGBTQ+.

So you don't know the basics but were happy to call us all hilarious bigots yesterday. Hokay.

That is appalling.

That is a man actively enabling another man to abuse and control a woman, exploiting their position of power and her vulnerability. For his own enjoyment. Using her body in a state of undress and removed dignity.

It's sexual assault.

I think wikipedia can help us here.

Just try reading the EqA.

Strange how we were all hateful bigots to you last night and yet today here you are making many of the points we make on this Board. How very strange.

The good and decent men don't enter female spaces and don't need to be told why. I feel that any man however he presents or identifies, and whatever certificate he has, who does enter female only spaces is not to be trusted. He doesn't care about the privacy, safety and dignity of women.

I agree with UpThePankhurst that the GRA needs to be amended (I would prefer repealed). In my opinion those with GRC's should never be treated as the opposite sex to what they are in law. So no more men going into women's prisons. It should not be a discussion men should be sent to mens prison.

who Is pushing you to take a stance on this? I'm curious because I only ever encounter this issue online - never irl, even though I'm a teacher and out and about in the world. My school has recently issued updated guidance in the light of Cass but I still haven't ever taught a trans student.

You would very likely notice a man in the women’s changing room or toilet. I’ve never met a trans woman/ trans id man that I couldn’t tell was male.

you might have a friend who is trans identified who you like and can’t imagine why other women would object to their presence in same sex spaces. I have a very close platonic male friend who I generally wouldn’t mind sharing spaces that I would normally share only with women or intimate partners. But still I wouldn’t expect him to be able to use women’s spaces- he’s a man and other women don’t know him. Also he’s a decent human and just wouldn’t want to get undressed in front of women and little girls. Good men stay out so bad men stand out

It's kind if terrifying isn't it? "Oh what you don't know won't hurt you".

I wonder if they apply the same reasoning to the care of blind people or other people whose disabilities might rely on carers being who they say they are? "Oh she's an old demented woman, she can't tell the difference, don't worry about her 'what matters to me' form expressing a preference for female carers".

User6874356
Good men stay out so bad men stand out.

This is exactly the point.

It is terrifying ditalini and then people act all shocked, wring their hands and proclaim how awful while simultaneously wondering how disabled, vulnerable and elderly people get abused.

Also worth considering in the going on a decade now since this political movement really became loud and public, and women's spaces, resources, rights and equalities, facilities and services were made mixed sex without consulting them or actively against their consent in favour of men's wishes?

Has respect for women as a sex class increased?

Have the rates of male assault and violence against women and girls decreased?

Have things like rape being pretty much decriminalised and increasing numbers of girls sexually assaulted at school become a thing of the past?

It all joins up. When you have two men actively colluding to enable each other to enjoy an undressed, non consenting woman who cannot protest or resist in fear of losing her access to care, and this is normal, then you see how this political movement is a men's rights movement. Quite arguably, a men's sexual rights movement. And it is anything but good for women.

Wonder why so many teenaged girls are desperately trying to identify out of having to grow up to be women?

That is just so fucking awful.

The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht and Sexed- A History of British Feminism are also very good.