Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

[StrumpersPlunkett]

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

Well, even your first question is difficult to answer. Not everyone who doesn't identify with their "gender" (aka sex stereotypes associated with their sex) calls themselves "trans" or "non-binary". In fact, most do not because most people are not walking sex stereotypes.

And certainly most feminists do not identify with the idea of "feminine" (which "gender" appears to refer to, in other words, stereotypes of supposedly "female" behaviour) equating to "female" (sex, regardless of adherence or not to any such stereotypes). Feminism has been fighting this regressive idea for well over half a century now. But that doesn't mean they will "identify as being a different gender" in the way that trans/gender ideology posits. Quite the opposite.Many of us feel gender ideology entrenches limiting, regressive sex stereotypes rather than opposing them as we would.For instance, if you say that a girl who has short hair and hates wearing dresses "isn't really female" and is something else called "non-binary" or even "male", you are limiting being female to a male idea of "femininity" in exactly the same way regressive sexists always have. Not only that, it is being used to actively dismantle the rights women fought for on the basis of our sex; because discrimination against us was and still is, based on our sex, not our adherence to stereotypes.

It might be better to ask what people who identify as being something called "trans" or "non-binary" actually think that means, and how they believe that distinguishes them from the rest of the population.

There are reported incidents of women and girls being assaulted by men who think they are women in women's spaces, including toilets. Katie Dolatowski being one infamous example, held a knife to the throat of one of the girls he assaulted.

However, amazingly, there are NO, that is ZERO, NONE reported incidents of men who think they are women and present in a way that they believe is stereotypical of women being assaulted in men's toilets or changing rooms when using them. In fact some prominent TW went into the Men's toilets to 'prove' how dangerous it would be for them and the stunt backfired on them massively the men in the toilet took absolutely NO notice of them in there at all, not so much as a side eye or comment.

All men, however they feel about themselves, however they dress, whether or not they are taking chemicals to change their bodies, wear make up or have had any surgical alterations to their bodies should stay OUT of ALL women's spaces. We don't segregate these spaces on the basis of people being nice, how on earth would that work? They are segregated on the basis of sex and sex does not change no matter what. Allow one male into a women's space the door is opened for all males.

If transwomen are unhappy about using the facilities designated for their sex they need to lobby for alternative provision, you know just like disabled people had to.

You have given me the confidence to accept that what I am hoping for long term is a place where trans-gender individuals are identified as separate from people who identify as their birth gender.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

This a million times over.

When you say "living as a woman" can you give any example of something that someone does that means they are a woman for doing that thing, and not a man?

Is it literally 'stating that you are a woman'?

Imo in most situations in life people shouldn't be treating men and women differently anyway.
But in the relatively few situations where your sex matters, it matters - so be honest about it.

yes this has me stumped as, well.

And me!

Maybe we will get a full explanation once the OP returns.

Op - genuine question here not trying to be arsey.

Do you think that biological men should have access into female only spaces?

"Identifying as your birth gender" is so meaningless.
Do I see that I have a female body? Yes.

Do I like it? Depends - would rather not have periods, and obviously there are times when being male would be far more advantageous. As I can't change my sex it would not be healthy for me to focus on this when I could be focusing on making the world more equal for men and women. Lots of people don't like things about their body and strongly wish it was different.

Do I feel I have some sort of personality that "aligns" with being female? No, because I'm not a sexist arse.

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

Once your friend has access to that space it is no longer a female space - it's a mixed sex space.
Consent is not transferable & for example neither I nor my teen daughters consent to getting changed in a mixed sex space.
By allowing your friend to access that space you exclude many many women who can't/won't use a mixed sex space.

Plus you're comfortable with your friend would you be comfortable sharing a changing room with Sarah Jane Baker? How do you include one & exclude the other?
(What does living as a woman mean - your friend is living as a man who has had cosmetic surgery/takes hormones/wants to conform to sexist ideas of what a woman is. They can't live as a woman as they are not a woman.)

single sex spaces are safer for women & girls

I think it is important to recognise, as others have said, that many trans identifying men ('transwomen') do not want a third space, because that does not validate their feeling of being an actual woman.

Take Lia Thomas, the guy who was 476 (?) in the Pennsylvania universities male swimming league. He came first as a 'woman'. The eye watering unfairness of this forced the league rule makers to think again. They came up with a third 'open' category. Job done.

Except it lasted about 10 minutes because it transpires the trans identified men want to beat women, not each other. There were No Takers.

Few had issue with cross dressers, transvestites, transsexuals; but that all changed when the coy 'gender' became to mean the same as 'sex', thus, a guy who THINKS he's a woman suddenly IS a woman; budge over, girls.

This is where the battle lines were drawn.

I have all the same questions and observations that pps have posted. In addition:

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes
He wouldn't be using female pronouns - he would be expecting other people to do so about him.

I agree, it doesn't matter how many.
Even if it were zero (unlikely) then men should not be in women only spaces. My DH and DS are not predators but I would still think it was unacceptable for them to use a Ladies toilet

Me three. Hope we get an explanation.

I think it's really helpful to think about what living as a woman means. Do we all live exactly the same way? What is is about how we live that makes it living as a woman? Is a woman who doesn't wear makeup, doesn't have kids and working as a plumber not a woman? Is a stay at home trophy wife mother who always looks so glamorous more of a woman? What about those of us with physics or maths degrees but can't cook a meal to save our life? And it works the other way- are stay at home dads not men? Etc

You will realise actually there is no way to live as a woman without using harmful stereotypes to describe this if you think about it. If we go along with the idea there are ways to live as a woman we go along with the continued oppression of women.

Exactly. They are pretending to be a woman by dressing/acting etc the way they think women do, using stereotypes that most actual women don't.

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

Presumably you mean living his fantasy of how a woman should live.

Do you also feel that I should be forced to allow this person to give me a smear test when I've requested a woman? Do you feel they should be offered access to a refuge for abused women? Or to a therapy group for raped women? What if women in these supposedly safe spaces say they don't want this person there, should their views be respected or should your friend's?

In answer to some of your other questions:

• The vast majority of men (over 90%) who id as women or "trans women" have not had reassignment surgery and retain their penises. Far more have breast augmentation surgery, generally because they are sexually aroused by this, than genital surgery. Look up "autogynephilia" and then think about how many "trans women" are clearly and obviously this.
• The vast majority of "trans women" are heterosexual in orientation. That is, their supposed "transition" does not change their basic sexual orientation. Heterosexual males. "Trans lesbians" are heterosexual males.
• There have been a number of assaults and sexual crimes (and threats made) against women and girls by men who identify as women and have used that to identify into their spaces. For instance, Katie Dolatowski, as mentioned previously. The WiiSpa incident, where the interloper (who women, some who were there with their young daughters. complained about and basically told to "educate themselves") was eventually found to be a known sex offender. Trans sex offender Karen White sexually assaulted women a women's prison. Rapist Isla Bryson in a women's prison.Tyler someone who used his trans identity to enter a rape crisis centre, where he was filmed gleefully posing with an erection in the toilets. The women who complained were told they were not welcome but he was. Many others. Bear in mind too, that well known sex offenders like Jimmy Savile affected MULTIPLE women. Just one sex offender can harm multiple women and girls. So it being a "minority" numbers wise is irrelevant.
• MOJ figures indicate that over half of "trans women" prisoners are in prison for sex offences, compared with around 18% of total male prisoners. Although they are a much smaller population, this gives them a rate of about five times the sex offender rates of men who do not id as women. That is not insignificant, and is infinitely more than sex offending rates of actual female inmates. There is no reason to assume 'trans women' are less dangerous to women than any other men, there is in fact reason to assume that they may be more so. After all, cross-dressing is one of the most common paraphilias of sex offenders. With self ID, what is the difference between a so-called "real" trans person and a cross-dressing man who is using it to access women's spaces? How would YOU tell the difference?
• Single sex spaces have to exist because a minority of men are sex offenders, but that minority causes untold harm to multiple women; we exclude ALL males as a result, even your dad, your nice uncle Fred or your Nigel who wouldn't hurt a fly.
• Over 99% of sex offenders are male, and over 80% of their victims female. The 99% figure includes men who identify as women.
• There is therefore NO reason to treat men who id as women as any different from any other man with respect to single sex spaces and the reasons we have them.

It looks like you are coming from the position of believing that everyone has a gender, OP.
Most of us who post on this board do not have a gender. We don't identify as our sex, we just are.
That's why we have no issue saying that any males should stay out of female spaces. No matter how they identify or how nice they are.

Yes. 100%

This basic fact says it all really.

The phrase "living as a woman" is pure old fashioned misogyny.

It comes straight from the idea that men are the default human and women are not only "other' but they are defined by men.

" Living as a woman" is really offensive. It is a euphemism for "Dressing, appearing and acting in ways that correspond to what male dominated society and culture has defined and proscribed as being acceptable for and allowed to female humans AKA women (as defined, classified and categorieed by male humans).

It is a phrase which denies women their individualality and their right to define themselves.

It is a phrase based on sexist stereotype and sex roles. It denies women's humanity and wholeness.

I'm always shocked by how easily it is bandied around.

Excellent posts hihelenhi and* *Beachcomber

Yet again a discussion and question list that assumes that 'trans people' are natal males who identify as transwomen

'trans people' may be natal females who identify as transmen.

So even before I get to the ludicrous 'living as' nonsense (a person with a Y chromosome is in fact obviously 'living as a man' even if he identifies as a transwoman because he is a man, there is nothing else he can live as), women are being written out of consideration. Again.

It was Tyler Porter, and in Canada. Further info here:

https://whatisawoman.uk/Refuges/

There are MULTIPLE examples of this kind of thing. Even if someone has not yet been done for it. Also, does anyone remember Yaniv and his "waxing" demands? He brought lawsuits against multiple women, mostly low-paid, immigrant beauticians working in their own homes, demanding that they wax his balls, on the grounds he was "female".

You should check the This Never Happens thread here on Mumsnet for all the times it does. A lot of it is to do with gaining sexual pleasure from encroaching women's boundaries in the first place. Why on earth should a man who feels that way that be allowed to do so?

Living as a woman actually means 'being referred to as a woman by other people'. Being a transwoman cannot happen internally. It needs external validation.

You put on lipstick, a skirt or even just pink trainers and change your name on your gas bill to Judy. That's it. That's all they can do to 'live as a woman'.

Everything else has to come from others. This is why they are so enraged with 'misgendering' and accuse people of denying their existence. Because to them, if you do not validate their fantasy, they really don't exist. Their internal 'feeling' is not enough.

It's so fundamental and necessary to them that they are trying to make law to force people to comply.

All but one of these men were 'living as a woman'. How are we supposed to tell which ones should be allowed access to vulnerable women and children?