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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

263 replies

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 12:43

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Snowypeaks · 28/07/2024 13:37

DeanElderberry · 28/07/2024 13:15

The OP of this thread seemed to want to talk specifically about Body dysmorphic disorder aka dysmorphia. Dysmorphia is a recognised mental health condition (similar to anorexia) that manifests itself as dissatisfaction with some aspect of the body, including sex-specific characteristics - also including stuff like wanting healthy limbs amputated.

Gender dysphoria is all about feelings. It is also a mental health condition - again, like anorexia.

Both of them are best treated with talking therapies.

Some men who would include themselves under the trans umbrella are in neither category. Not sure about women.

The distinction between them is worth noting in that although all of us (I think) agree that legs, breasts, penises etc exist, many of us do not believe that gender exists.

So it's a question of taking your pick between a mental health condition centered around dislike of your physical body and a mental health condition centered around a wish to conform to a set of sex stereotypes.

And those men with different agendas.

Edited

Thanks, that's a helpful distinction.

Christinapple · 28/07/2024 14:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

hihelenhi · 28/07/2024 15:11

Your earlier claims and arguments in this thread all fall down

Where? I've literally not seen ANY of our "claims" or arguments "falling down." Or even serious attempts to counter them except by name-calling, hyperbole etc.

Care to show us this evidence of our "claims falling down?" Which claims precisely? Where's the counter argument?

DrBlackbird · 28/07/2024 15:17

hihelenhi · 27/07/2024 23:18

It's absurd, isn't it? Not a serious poster, and certainly not a knowledgeable one.

Quite unbelievable.

Someone from AIFL?

GrumpyPanda · 28/07/2024 18:01

You are absolutely right - I do not have the right to consent for other women, nor would I want to and I do find it very complicated to think of someone I used to work with who had gender reassignment surgery in 1998. Should a she be allowed to use spaces reserved for women?

Absolutely not, for two simple reasons.

  1. How would that be enforced? It's usually fairly easy to tell somebody dressed in stereotypically feminine manner is actually a man. To tell whether or not this man has undergone castration and penis inversion would require the very "genital inspections" nobody actually wants and yet transactivists never cease ranting about.
  1. Requiring any such surgery in order for men to be admitted to women's spaces would constitute a massive human rights violation and surely would be thrown out by courts.
DeanElderberry · 28/07/2024 18:05

AIFL? Artificial Intelligence For Larpers?

sorry, got nothing

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2024 18:10

Your earlier claims and arguments in this thread all fall down.

Sure, sure.

Catsmere · 28/07/2024 21:51

That poster has given up all pretence of not being a TRA. Latest bingo box ticked is dragging an example of a man with a DSD into the conversation and insisting that is the same as "trans". Standard forced teaming tactic.

Alucard55 · 28/07/2024 22:24

Anything other than just calling a man a man.

Catsmere · 28/07/2024 22:28

Misogynistic LARPing as a protected characteristic. The mind boggles. How right Germaine Greer was. We have no idea how much men hate us ... though they find new ways to show us every day.

YouJustDoYou · 28/07/2024 22:32

"Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no"

As a woman with many decades of life who HAS been attacked/threatened, MULTIPLE, MANY times by men, just as a dog kicked by a man many many times will be scared of men (and thusly the adoption centres will specifically stipulated no men FOR A REASON) - there is good reason for women (and animals) to be wary.

Good. Fucking. Reason.

Christinapple · 28/07/2024 23:10

Why was my reply deleted?

GailBlancheViola · 28/07/2024 23:43

Christinapple · 28/07/2024 23:10

Why was my reply deleted?

Breaking Talk Guidelines as the message says. Ask MNHQ for further clarification if you want.

Alucard55 · 29/07/2024 01:10

Catsmere
I'm stealing Misogynist LARPing and I'm using it in my next email to my local MP.

Catsmere · 29/07/2024 03:09

@Alucard55 too kind! ☺️

Omlettes · 29/07/2024 04:35

TWETMIRF · 27/07/2024 18:26

Women have been told that if they go into the ladies at work and come straight out again because a transwoman is in there, they will be disciplined for transphobia. This means that women can't even choose when they use the toilets in their workplace to try and avoid sharing with the opposite sex.

We've heard from women who have had transwomen colleagues who mysteriously seem to need the toilet whenever they do. Can you imagine how threatening it would be to be followed in every single time? The women who have reported this were warned about their transphobia, the man following them is supported by their employer to keep doing it.

WTF! Where is this, please provide link to this because its almost certainly illegal if true?

DrBlackbird · 29/07/2024 08:23

DeanElderberry · 28/07/2024 18:05

AIFL? Artificial Intelligence For Larpers?

sorry, got nothing

Aston Institute for Forensic Linguistics. Those folks that have been data scraping off MN for years. More recently to prove we’re all transphobes.

DeanElderberry · 29/07/2024 08:29

Ah - yes, I know all about Aston and their skeevy scrapy ways, just somehow blanked out the acronym.

I agree that there's a lot of that sort of thing.

hihelenhi · 29/07/2024 08:40

Omlettes · 29/07/2024 04:35

WTF! Where is this, please provide link to this because its almost certainly illegal if true?

How do you suggest we "prove" it's true? It has been reported by people, yes. I believe we're talking here about posts that have been made by posters on Mumsnet relaying their personal experiences, asking for advice etc, but there may be others. I remember one here fairly recently, for instance, where an employee said she had been taken to HR over an incident with a "trans" colleague in the Ladies. Something to do with tampons? I'm sure you'll be able to find examples yourself if you take the time to look.

hihelenhi · 29/07/2024 08:42

DeanElderberry · 29/07/2024 08:29

Ah - yes, I know all about Aston and their skeevy scrapy ways, just somehow blanked out the acronym.

I agree that there's a lot of that sort of thing.

Oh, hilarious. Pity that we tend to be so much more logical than some of our more hyperbolic TRA visitors and can back up our claims, then, isn't it?

UpThePankhurst · 29/07/2024 09:15

Omlettes · 29/07/2024 04:35

WTF! Where is this, please provide link to this because its almost certainly illegal if true?

I remember the threads, these were experiences shared by MNetters in discussion rather than articles in journals or newspapers. If I remember right, I think the 'you cannot leave the toilets on seeing a male is in there' thing came from a civil service office??

If you rummage around and search threads you should come across them. Sadly unless a woman has the multiple thousands and the willingness to screw her career for good and the resilience to deal with several years of intense stress and harassment, resisting through the courts isn't possible. It's why many women are so very grateful to women like Maya who have been able to do that and get HR and establishments reminded that they do have to follow the law.

GailBlancheViola · 29/07/2024 13:44

If I remember right, I think the 'you cannot leave the toilets on seeing a male is in there' thing came from a civil service office??

It was in a Civil Service office diktat with the added example of a woman having turned round and exited the toilets because there was a man in there being the crime of the century for which the witch must be burned.

BabaYagasHouse · 29/07/2024 15:12

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2024 07:33

My point is that everyone wants to be nice. They want to accept without question. The problem is that it's a situation where it's not necessarily being nice to uphold a lie. It can do more harm in the long run to both parties. Ultimately you can't change sex and this matters.

It matters because people retain behaviours and experiences and expectations. It matters because of physical strength and abilities. It matters because of trauma and dignity.

Is it kind or respectful of a male to walk into a female changing room with women who have religious sensitivities or may have a history of sexual abuse or being stalked and then undress in that room having never had surgery which is the case for most transwomen?

Is it kind or respectful of a male to demand he be included in women's sport, especially if that comes with an educational scholarship and at the expense of a woman who can't compete with his physicality. Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk.

There is ultimately a point in this journey where you realise that your generousity of spirit is a one way thing and that what you are actually doing is an act of self harm which is demanded by emotional manipulation. It isnt acknowledged as this.

This is where we see the power dynamics and the socialisation of women in particular at play, in terms of being used to deferring to make demands. It's where we see issues of class emerging and high status men and women betraying and abusing lower status women in the name of inclusivity because they are protected from a particular issue and have no empathy or understanding of the lives of those outside their social bubble.

It's a journey we all go on. Never at any point does any one who go on it, become a nasty person. It's just that their empathy and understanding of who is the most vulnerable and most in need of protection shifts and they realise they've been misled and misunderstood the dynamics.

No one wants to harm anyone. This is about understanding the balance of issues and who they effect and how. And where things have been exaggerated and manipulated for material gains despite the evidence (or indeed evidence is actively suppressed in order to manipulate).

We have data that shows that cross dressing forms a pattern in serious sexual offenders. We have data that trans identifying prisoners have rates of sexually related offences higher than the general male prison population. Yet we are not permitted to talk about this because this offends law abiding trans people. Unfortunately we have to in the same way that we have to acknowledge that Islamic terrorists statistically tend to come from certain backgrounds and that ultra right wing domestic terrorism follows certain patterns too.

We understand that people who fall into those categories are law abiding citizens in the majority of cases, but we must be aware of these patterns in how we function as a society without persecuting at the same time. It's not an easy task and yes, it is problematic but it's about balancing issues and harms.

We also have to acknowledge in law that voyeurism is acknowledged as a crime and has certain patterns of offense where males take advantage of soft areas and exploit them. These are trans people. They are criminals who will go to lengths to commit their crimes. We have to offer protections that recognise this. A failure to acknowledge this is an issue and to pretend that there's no risk to self I'd is not kind. It is a wholesale dereliction of duty by those in positions of authority.

Anyone who is trans and is kind needs to understand that their need for validation can not and should not put others at risk. They are deserving of protections but this shouldn't come at a cost of harm to others. Because this is not kind.

I think there's a point where so many people who go on the journey from being totally accepting without question, feel this incredible guilt from asking questions and feel almost dirty from doing so. Because of the social pressure to 'do the right thing'. Ultimately the right thing is to not act on emotion but to seek out information dispassionately and acknowledge where there are issues which perhaps are inconvenient and don't fit the narrative. Because this is recognition of how the real world works in practice and not a naive idealistic version of what we should be doing if everyone was nice and the world was perfect. We don't live in a perfect world.

Fantastic post

NameChangedForThisDiscussion · 30/07/2024 00:17

Midlifecareerchange · 27/07/2024 20:53

who Is pushing you to take a stance on this? I'm curious because I only ever encounter this issue online - never irl, even though I'm a teacher and out and about in the world. My school has recently issued updated guidance in the light of Cass but I still haven't ever taught a trans student.

Lucky you, I’ve been encountering men dressing as women and using spaces such as toilets on and off for 40 years.

Catiette · 30/07/2024 01:17

@Omlettes. Not only not condemned as illegal, but an attitude proactively encouraged by government in this case…

https://www.vic.gov.au/media/977575

As many women globally have noted, the woman’s look seems more like one of fear. Not least because so many of us have every reason to be wary of entering an enclosed space with a strange male. According to this campaign, though, women putting their actual physical safety before a male’s emotional “safety” (AKA well-being, at most) is abhorrent.

Given the above was rolled out on this scale & is still online… I think we can assume it’s happening.