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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

263 replies

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 12:43

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
0Oo · 27/07/2024 21:33

> Also he’s a decent human and just wouldn’t want to get undressed in front of women and little girls.

True.

0Oo · 27/07/2024 22:32

hihelenhi · 27/07/2024 20:37

Most "trans women" do not pass. Very obviously. And it's obvious to most of us because a) it's actually extremely difficult in reality to "feminise",or I should say, de-sex, an adult male appearance beyond the superficial, which is one of the big reasons there's a push to puberty blockers in teens b) being able to correctly identify who are the males and who are the females is a cognitive skill that most people develop when babies - facial pattern recognition, for instance, is one of the first skills we learn (animals also distinguish really, really easily) Also c) most women are VERY aware of who is male and who is female and need to be for our own safety. There are also really obvious markers like gait, which you can spot at 50 paces.

It's fond fantasy to imagine otherwise, though a frequent argument by those who live by fantasy.

> hihelenhi · Today 20:37
> Most "trans women" do not pass ... which is one of the big reasons there's a push to puberty blockers in teens b) being able to correctly identify who are the males and who are the females is a cognitive skill that most people develop when babies - facial pattern recognition

So your wish is to deny medical treatment to patients because you cannot identify them in order to exclude them for our spaces.

Sod this! At this point I lost any support for your cause. I feel sick.
I will side with the people I know in real life. s

UpThePankhurst · 27/07/2024 22:39

Essentially then your decision is to support the freedoms and choices of men over the inclusion, equality, rights, privacy, dignity and safety of women.

Which is your decision, but you need to own that you're 'siding' with male supremacism.

Catsmere · 27/07/2024 22:47

UpThePankhurst · 27/07/2024 13:23

Not to mention who gets to do, and who gets to be used.

Who gets to take and who has to give.

Who is the active seeker of pleasure and who is just the receptacle and prop.

Yes, exactly what I meant, but stated more clearly!

Alucard55 · 27/07/2024 22:53

If you want to be a men's ally and aid and support them in encroaching on women's rights, safety, privacy and dignity then crack on but at least be honest about it and say that. If you feel society needs to affirm the delusions of these men and welcome them into the spaces where women are most vulnerable then say it.

Catsmere · 27/07/2024 23:01

0Oo · 27/07/2024 22:32

> hihelenhi · Today 20:37
> Most "trans women" do not pass ... which is one of the big reasons there's a push to puberty blockers in teens b) being able to correctly identify who are the males and who are the females is a cognitive skill that most people develop when babies - facial pattern recognition

So your wish is to deny medical treatment to patients because you cannot identify them in order to exclude them for our spaces.

Sod this! At this point I lost any support for your cause. I feel sick.
I will side with the people I know in real life. s

Edited

What are you talking about? We're not talking about denying treatment to TiM. We're talking about women not having to submit to men's presence in intimate care.

Why do you care more about these men's desires than the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls?

RedToothBrush · 27/07/2024 23:09

You are at stage 3.

Stage 1: Airhead. Accepting what you are told without question. You are determined to do anything you can to support TWAW.
Stage 2: Peaker. Starting to see there's a few issues that need to be addressed as it's clear their a conflict point. You still want to be nice about trans people and don't want to offend.
Stage 3: In the land of nuances. Desperate to prove you are still kind but very aware of being accused differently. The opinions of what others think of tmyyis more significant than it should be.
Stage 4. Deeper Thinker. You start to realise 'be kind' is a sham and there's a lack of counter respect. You are prepared to give it, they want to take without receprecation.
Stage 5. It dawn on you you've been missold a lie. You feel like you have mug tattooed on your forehead.

I would go further but I think that's the deal.

hihelenhi · 27/07/2024 23:15

0Oo · 27/07/2024 22:32

> hihelenhi · Today 20:37
> Most "trans women" do not pass ... which is one of the big reasons there's a push to puberty blockers in teens b) being able to correctly identify who are the males and who are the females is a cognitive skill that most people develop when babies - facial pattern recognition

So your wish is to deny medical treatment to patients because you cannot identify them in order to exclude them for our spaces.

Sod this! At this point I lost any support for your cause. I feel sick.
I will side with the people I know in real life. s

Edited

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Nobody is denying anyone "medical treatment". What "medical treatment" are you talking about?

I couldn't care less if you "feel sick". You're being ridiculous and hyperbolic. When presented with uncomfortable facts you don't like. You're talking to grown ups on here.

I'm sorry to tell you that I have heard from a number of males who id as women that they feel their lives would be easier if they had been given puberty blockers in their teens primarily BECAUSE they would "pass" better as women.

That is extremely sick, when you think about it. If you know anything about what putting kids, boys in this case, on puberty blocks does to their bodies, and that it most certainly is not "reversible" or a "pause button". You get one shot at puberty.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/07/2024 23:15

So your wish is to deny medical treatment to patients because you cannot identify them in order to exclude them for our spaces.

That's not why people think puberty blockers are a problem Confused

hihelenhi · 27/07/2024 23:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/07/2024 23:15

So your wish is to deny medical treatment to patients because you cannot identify them in order to exclude them for our spaces.

That's not why people think puberty blockers are a problem Confused

It's absurd, isn't it? Not a serious poster, and certainly not a knowledgeable one.

Quite unbelievable.

hihelenhi · 27/07/2024 23:29

Catsmere · 27/07/2024 23:01

What are you talking about? We're not talking about denying treatment to TiM. We're talking about women not having to submit to men's presence in intimate care.

Why do you care more about these men's desires than the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls?

Apparently we must put boys who play with what sexist adults think are the "wrong toys" for their sex and especially boys who their parents suspect are gay which they can't handle (as the Tavi whistleblowers pointed out), on irreversible puberty blockers which will prevent them going through adolescence and developing adult male features and genitals, and that's "vital health care" because some middle aged adult men are sad that most women like me can see they're clearly male, and some parents would rather have a "trans daughter" than a "gay son". See Suzy Green and her child. She was laughing in a video that the surgeons "didn't have much to work with" when she took him for surgery in Thailand at 16. Well, no, they wouldn't. Because puberty blockers do that. They aren't reversible. They are a one-way medical pathway.

I know who I think is "sick" and it's anyone that supports this vile, abusive nonsense. These are KIDS, propping up adult male's fantasies about themselves. And this idiot who doesn't even know most of what we're talking about here has the nerve to blame me and women like me for seeing it? I despair. No, actually, I'm furious. This nonsense has to stop.

0Oo · 27/07/2024 23:34

RedToothBrush · 27/07/2024 23:09

You are at stage 3.

Stage 1: Airhead. Accepting what you are told without question. You are determined to do anything you can to support TWAW.
Stage 2: Peaker. Starting to see there's a few issues that need to be addressed as it's clear their a conflict point. You still want to be nice about trans people and don't want to offend.
Stage 3: In the land of nuances. Desperate to prove you are still kind but very aware of being accused differently. The opinions of what others think of tmyyis more significant than it should be.
Stage 4. Deeper Thinker. You start to realise 'be kind' is a sham and there's a lack of counter respect. You are prepared to give it, they want to take without receprecation.
Stage 5. It dawn on you you've been missold a lie. You feel like you have mug tattooed on your forehead.

I would go further but I think that's the deal.

I will get back to you on this after much further reading. It is late and there are many chores to complete tomorrow! Night.

Zita60 · 27/07/2024 23:41

0Oo · 27/07/2024 22:32

> hihelenhi · Today 20:37
> Most "trans women" do not pass ... which is one of the big reasons there's a push to puberty blockers in teens b) being able to correctly identify who are the males and who are the females is a cognitive skill that most people develop when babies - facial pattern recognition

So your wish is to deny medical treatment to patients because you cannot identify them in order to exclude them for our spaces.

Sod this! At this point I lost any support for your cause. I feel sick.
I will side with the people I know in real life. s

Edited

No.

The majority of youngsters who have gender distress do not turn out to be trans, it’s often a temporary phase. Going through puberty resolves the gender distress and many of them go on to realise and accept that they are gay.

But if a child is put onto puberty blockers, puberty is not allowed to happen and the resolution doesn’t happen. Most such children go on to cross-sex hormones, and very possibly surgery. And yet many of them would have gone on to lead normal healthy lives if left alone, instead of having life-long medical problems.

Puberty blockers are not fully reversible and have side effects. Cross-sex hormones and surgery are definitely not reversible. So putting any youngster who is suffering gender distress onto puberty blockers is irresponsible and harmful. While it might help the small number of youngsters who persist with a trans identity, it will harm many others.

That is why we urge caution concerning puberty blockers. It has nothing to do with making it easier for us to detect trans people.

If you really want to know about the medical evidence about puberty blockers and the paucity of evidence that they help youngsters with gender distress, you could read the Cass Review.

cass.independent-review.uk/

Catsmere · 28/07/2024 00:20

hihelenhi · 27/07/2024 23:29

Apparently we must put boys who play with what sexist adults think are the "wrong toys" for their sex and especially boys who their parents suspect are gay which they can't handle (as the Tavi whistleblowers pointed out), on irreversible puberty blockers which will prevent them going through adolescence and developing adult male features and genitals, and that's "vital health care" because some middle aged adult men are sad that most women like me can see they're clearly male, and some parents would rather have a "trans daughter" than a "gay son". See Suzy Green and her child. She was laughing in a video that the surgeons "didn't have much to work with" when she took him for surgery in Thailand at 16. Well, no, they wouldn't. Because puberty blockers do that. They aren't reversible. They are a one-way medical pathway.

I know who I think is "sick" and it's anyone that supports this vile, abusive nonsense. These are KIDS, propping up adult male's fantasies about themselves. And this idiot who doesn't even know most of what we're talking about here has the nerve to blame me and women like me for seeing it? I despair. No, actually, I'm furious. This nonsense has to stop.

Edited

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

XChrome · 28/07/2024 02:06

0Oo · 27/07/2024 22:32

> hihelenhi · Today 20:37
> Most "trans women" do not pass ... which is one of the big reasons there's a push to puberty blockers in teens b) being able to correctly identify who are the males and who are the females is a cognitive skill that most people develop when babies - facial pattern recognition

So your wish is to deny medical treatment to patients because you cannot identify them in order to exclude them for our spaces.

Sod this! At this point I lost any support for your cause. I feel sick.
I will side with the people I know in real life. s

Edited

So what illness is this medical treatment, as you call it, supposed to be treating? It sounds like you're saying it is an illness to be trans, since you are calling it medical treatment to give puberty blockers to allegedly trans kids.
I call it what it is- social engineering.

Catsmere · 28/07/2024 02:30

I notice 0Oo doesn't seem to care about all the girls - the young lesbians, the autistic girls, the merely nonconforming girls - subjected to "treatments" that mean double mastectomies, exogenous hormones that cause uterine atrophy, early osteoporosis and early-onset dementia - but only about the men we don't want in women's single-sex spaces. Colour me shocked.

Elbone · 28/07/2024 06:29

It boils down to this:

When two groups have conflicting wants

  1. women wanting access to female-only spaces
  2. men wanting access to female-only spaces

Why do you prioritise the wants of group 2 and so easily dismiss the wants of group 1?

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2024 07:33

0Oo · 27/07/2024 23:34

I will get back to you on this after much further reading. It is late and there are many chores to complete tomorrow! Night.

My point is that everyone wants to be nice. They want to accept without question. The problem is that it's a situation where it's not necessarily being nice to uphold a lie. It can do more harm in the long run to both parties. Ultimately you can't change sex and this matters.

It matters because people retain behaviours and experiences and expectations. It matters because of physical strength and abilities. It matters because of trauma and dignity.

Is it kind or respectful of a male to walk into a female changing room with women who have religious sensitivities or may have a history of sexual abuse or being stalked and then undress in that room having never had surgery which is the case for most transwomen?

Is it kind or respectful of a male to demand he be included in women's sport, especially if that comes with an educational scholarship and at the expense of a woman who can't compete with his physicality. Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk.

There is ultimately a point in this journey where you realise that your generousity of spirit is a one way thing and that what you are actually doing is an act of self harm which is demanded by emotional manipulation. It isnt acknowledged as this.

This is where we see the power dynamics and the socialisation of women in particular at play, in terms of being used to deferring to make demands. It's where we see issues of class emerging and high status men and women betraying and abusing lower status women in the name of inclusivity because they are protected from a particular issue and have no empathy or understanding of the lives of those outside their social bubble.

It's a journey we all go on. Never at any point does any one who go on it, become a nasty person. It's just that their empathy and understanding of who is the most vulnerable and most in need of protection shifts and they realise they've been misled and misunderstood the dynamics.

No one wants to harm anyone. This is about understanding the balance of issues and who they effect and how. And where things have been exaggerated and manipulated for material gains despite the evidence (or indeed evidence is actively suppressed in order to manipulate).

We have data that shows that cross dressing forms a pattern in serious sexual offenders. We have data that trans identifying prisoners have rates of sexually related offences higher than the general male prison population. Yet we are not permitted to talk about this because this offends law abiding trans people. Unfortunately we have to in the same way that we have to acknowledge that Islamic terrorists statistically tend to come from certain backgrounds and that ultra right wing domestic terrorism follows certain patterns too.

We understand that people who fall into those categories are law abiding citizens in the majority of cases, but we must be aware of these patterns in how we function as a society without persecuting at the same time. It's not an easy task and yes, it is problematic but it's about balancing issues and harms.

We also have to acknowledge in law that voyeurism is acknowledged as a crime and has certain patterns of offense where males take advantage of soft areas and exploit them. These are trans people. They are criminals who will go to lengths to commit their crimes. We have to offer protections that recognise this. A failure to acknowledge this is an issue and to pretend that there's no risk to self I'd is not kind. It is a wholesale dereliction of duty by those in positions of authority.

Anyone who is trans and is kind needs to understand that their need for validation can not and should not put others at risk. They are deserving of protections but this shouldn't come at a cost of harm to others. Because this is not kind.

I think there's a point where so many people who go on the journey from being totally accepting without question, feel this incredible guilt from asking questions and feel almost dirty from doing so. Because of the social pressure to 'do the right thing'. Ultimately the right thing is to not act on emotion but to seek out information dispassionately and acknowledge where there are issues which perhaps are inconvenient and don't fit the narrative. Because this is recognition of how the real world works in practice and not a naive idealistic version of what we should be doing if everyone was nice and the world was perfect. We don't live in a perfect world.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2024 07:39

Brilliant post, Red.

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2024 07:46

Edit to the above due to a typo.

We also have to acknowledge in law that voyeurism is acknowledged as a crime and has certain patterns of offense where males take advantage of soft areas and exploit them. These are not trans people. They are criminals who will go to lengths to commit their crimes.

0Oo · 28/07/2024 09:10

Morning,

I did give what you all wrote thought. Your stances are thought provoking, but society has been down this path before, and it did not end nicely last time.

> Is it kind or respectful of a male to demand he be included in women's sport, especially if that comes with an educational scholarship and at the expense of a woman who can't compete with his physicality. Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk.

Initially I could agree with your opinion until I read about an athlete called Zdeněk Koube from Czechoslovakia. He was a track and field athlete who won medals and broke records in the womens high jump and the eight hundred metre. In his later years, he played for the men's rugby team RC Říčany. He was the team’s quickest member, and probably should not have played in women's earlier in his life given his physical advantages. Appartently was called intersex back then, but we would call him trans these days. He was a trans man.

Here is an article from the NewYorker about him published in June 2024:

https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/a-forgotten-athlete-a-nazi-official-and-the-origins-of-sex-testing-at-the-olympics

Your earlier claims and arguments in this thread all fall down.

A Forgotten Athlete, a Nazi Official, and the Origins of Sex Testing at the Olympics

In 1936, the Czech track star Zdeněk Koubek became world-famous after undergoing surgery so that he could live openly as a man.

https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/a-forgotten-athlete-a-nazi-official-and-the-origins-of-sex-testing-at-the-olympics

Mmmnotsure · 28/07/2024 09:19

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2024 07:33

My point is that everyone wants to be nice. They want to accept without question. The problem is that it's a situation where it's not necessarily being nice to uphold a lie. It can do more harm in the long run to both parties. Ultimately you can't change sex and this matters.

It matters because people retain behaviours and experiences and expectations. It matters because of physical strength and abilities. It matters because of trauma and dignity.

Is it kind or respectful of a male to walk into a female changing room with women who have religious sensitivities or may have a history of sexual abuse or being stalked and then undress in that room having never had surgery which is the case for most transwomen?

Is it kind or respectful of a male to demand he be included in women's sport, especially if that comes with an educational scholarship and at the expense of a woman who can't compete with his physicality. Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk.

There is ultimately a point in this journey where you realise that your generousity of spirit is a one way thing and that what you are actually doing is an act of self harm which is demanded by emotional manipulation. It isnt acknowledged as this.

This is where we see the power dynamics and the socialisation of women in particular at play, in terms of being used to deferring to make demands. It's where we see issues of class emerging and high status men and women betraying and abusing lower status women in the name of inclusivity because they are protected from a particular issue and have no empathy or understanding of the lives of those outside their social bubble.

It's a journey we all go on. Never at any point does any one who go on it, become a nasty person. It's just that their empathy and understanding of who is the most vulnerable and most in need of protection shifts and they realise they've been misled and misunderstood the dynamics.

No one wants to harm anyone. This is about understanding the balance of issues and who they effect and how. And where things have been exaggerated and manipulated for material gains despite the evidence (or indeed evidence is actively suppressed in order to manipulate).

We have data that shows that cross dressing forms a pattern in serious sexual offenders. We have data that trans identifying prisoners have rates of sexually related offences higher than the general male prison population. Yet we are not permitted to talk about this because this offends law abiding trans people. Unfortunately we have to in the same way that we have to acknowledge that Islamic terrorists statistically tend to come from certain backgrounds and that ultra right wing domestic terrorism follows certain patterns too.

We understand that people who fall into those categories are law abiding citizens in the majority of cases, but we must be aware of these patterns in how we function as a society without persecuting at the same time. It's not an easy task and yes, it is problematic but it's about balancing issues and harms.

We also have to acknowledge in law that voyeurism is acknowledged as a crime and has certain patterns of offense where males take advantage of soft areas and exploit them. These are trans people. They are criminals who will go to lengths to commit their crimes. We have to offer protections that recognise this. A failure to acknowledge this is an issue and to pretend that there's no risk to self I'd is not kind. It is a wholesale dereliction of duty by those in positions of authority.

Anyone who is trans and is kind needs to understand that their need for validation can not and should not put others at risk. They are deserving of protections but this shouldn't come at a cost of harm to others. Because this is not kind.

I think there's a point where so many people who go on the journey from being totally accepting without question, feel this incredible guilt from asking questions and feel almost dirty from doing so. Because of the social pressure to 'do the right thing'. Ultimately the right thing is to not act on emotion but to seek out information dispassionately and acknowledge where there are issues which perhaps are inconvenient and don't fit the narrative. Because this is recognition of how the real world works in practice and not a naive idealistic version of what we should be doing if everyone was nice and the world was perfect. We don't live in a perfect world.

@RedToothBrush
Thank you for this, and for your other posts. They are reasoned and clear, and really help to reset sense.

Alucard55 · 28/07/2024 09:31

0Oo · 28/07/2024 09:10

Morning,

I did give what you all wrote thought. Your stances are thought provoking, but society has been down this path before, and it did not end nicely last time.

> Is it kind or respectful of a male to demand he be included in women's sport, especially if that comes with an educational scholarship and at the expense of a woman who can't compete with his physicality. Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk.

Initially I could agree with your opinion until I read about an athlete called Zdeněk Koube from Czechoslovakia. He was a track and field athlete who won medals and broke records in the womens high jump and the eight hundred metre. In his later years, he played for the men's rugby team RC Říčany. He was the team’s quickest member, and probably should not have played in women's earlier in his life given his physical advantages. Appartently was called intersex back then, but we would call him trans these days. He was a trans man.

Here is an article from the NewYorker about him published in June 2024:

https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/a-forgotten-athlete-a-nazi-official-and-the-origins-of-sex-testing-at-the-olympics

Your earlier claims and arguments in this thread all fall down.

Edited

I don't think you're getting this at all.

Could you answer this question? Do you believe that biological men should be permitted access into female only spaces?

DeanElderberry · 28/07/2024 09:37

Society has NEVER been down this path before. Gender theory and queer theory are both new inventions (around since the 70s at best) and have only leaked into the world people live in in the last 20 years.

The pharmaceutical industry has gone into the production and pushing of hormonal and other 'treatments' to back it up since their previous massively profitable product, opioids, began to be a liability.

This is a new thing, driven by an industry wanting profit, academics wanting things to write about, and a small group of very dodgy men wanting unfettered access to women and children's bodies.

Not a path that has been trodden before, anywhere.

UpThePankhurst · 28/07/2024 09:38

Society's been down what path before? Women having rights and equalities to men?

You're a male supremacist, love. You are arguing that the rights of women and their access and equalities should be subordinated to the self expression of men. That a male human has value and importance that a female human doesn't, and it is the birth right of a female to serve and sacrifice. (Or identify as a man.) And it's ok to you that this results in women being harmed and excluded from society and losing their resources because it's worth it for those special men.

Whatever, you do you, but you need to be honest about it.

I'm personally fine with women choosing to serve men in any way that suits them, their body and their choice. But those women can go and use the men's facilities and make the men's spaces the gender neutral ones, and stop trying to remove rights from women who do not consent.

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