There's nothing I can do about this, is there?

[Acunningruse]

Visited a different city today for work and went to a branch of Caffè Nero. I was served by what was very clearly a man, despite his attempt to look female and the fact he was wearing a she/her badge. Said man was wearing extremely tight leggings which, as he was wearing a waist-length t-shirt, meant his manhood was obviously visible. His appearance was a source of mumbling/muttering in the queue and he seemed to be enjoying the attention with a lot of hair-flicking.

I m not able to articulate why this made me so uncomfortable- other than the fact that no way in hell would I want to share a bathroom or changing room with this person.

But there's nothing at all to be done, is there? As any objection would surely be met with accusations of "discrimination " and "be kind".

Just so so frustrating. I just wanted to scream "you are not a woman!!!!" But I can't, can I.

Perhaps if Cafe Nero wants to do it's own version of hooter's then that's the route they will take.

All men should dress appropriately for work. Identifying as trans does not give men a right to indecently expose themselves.

This thread is showing the ferocity of many people’s fear of gender norms changing at the moment. Who ever reported the comment I made is proof of that.

• the point I was making (and I hope this one gets to stay up) was that whatever some people may want to see happening, the younger generations in the West are becoming more open minded, and seeing blokes in tights will become more normal, and one day no one will fear this anymore. Just as seeing women in pants would once have been frowned upon and reported, but is now normal. As someone who’s uncomfortable with this change, you can choose to resist it or face that the times they are a-changing (or move to a country where this will never happen, can think of a few)

• All the arguments about “biology” are highly questionable - since when should seeing the outline of male genitalia (non-erect I assume) through clothes cause fight and flight to kick in as a biological response? if that is happening for some women, that for certain is a highly cultural and learned reaction, not something rooted in biology, further explanation as to this point shouldn’t be necessary..

Let me try to finally engage with this argument properly. So what many of you are arguing is, in all seriousness, that trans women are more likely to harm women than straight men? Is that correct? And your fear is that if being out and proud trans becomes accepted, it will become more widespread and women up and down the country will begin to become molested in large numbers by trans women?

Probably the least likely to be dangerous to women

More than 50% of transwomen in prison in the UK are there for sexual assault crimes. That's about 5 times as many as in the general male prison population. So statistically speaking, transwomen are the type of man most likely to be dangerous to women.

And that's before we even get onto the vast number of sexual killers and sadists who were trans. Off the top of my head: John Wayne Gacy, Ed Gein, Peter Sutcliffe, Beate Schmidt, Donna Perry, Harvey Micelin, Sam Coetzee, John Frank Brown, Hadden Clark, Russell Williams, Reginald Arthurell, Henry Lee Lucas...

Sorry for deadnaming so many of the true and honest women named above, btw. I can't help it, I'm a terf.

I visited this branch of Caffè Nero on Thursday 11th and Friday 12th November.

It's April.

Is that the same GLAAD that proactively pushes the administering of damaging cross-sex hormones and disabling surgeries to CHILDREN? The same GLAAD whose covert funding caused Dawn Butler to mislead Parliament and led to a chilling effect within the Labour Party whereby women who recognise biological reality were bullied and drummed out?

Aw how sweet. And you quoted a TS lyric. How sassy; you really owned the terfs.

the younger generations in the West are becoming more open minded, and seeing blokes in tights will become more normal, and one day no one will fear this anymore.

I'm really not convinced that it's a sign of more openmindedness and a blow to traditional concepts of masculinity that a bloke in tights is now considered a woman rather than a bloke in tights.

So what many of you are arguing is, in all seriousness, that trans women are more likely to harm women than straight men? Is that correct?

We're stating the Ministry of Justice figures which show quite clearly that a significantly higher proportion of transwomen are in jail for sexual offences than the general male population. The data indicates that, proportionally, more TWs are arrested, charged and found guilty of sexual offences than the average man in the street. This is an article from the Telegraph:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/government-figures-70-per-cent-of-transgender-prisoners-are/#:~:text=The%20figures%20released%20by%20the,to%20the%20Ministry%20of%20Justice.

We are certainly arguing in all seriousness, because our argument is based on evidence. What is your argument based on? Your personal experience in German saunas?

The fact that in adult men transitioning is highly likely to be as a result of a fetish — autogynephilia — in which men get a sexual thrill out of dressing as a woman and out of the discomfort women feel as a result, probably goes some way towards explaining the MoJ figures. Are you now going to tell us that you didn't know about AGP, @Goldfishonabike ?

And what is your point?

No one fears men in tights. Women don't want men dressed inappropriately/having their clearly defined genitals (covered or not) in their faces in places where this isn't considered appropriate. Same as women.

Women also don't want men in their spaces where they shouldn't be. In a dress, tights or otherwise.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Most transwomen ARE straight men. They may call themselves lesbians but are still males attracted to females so are therefore heterosexual.

It's quite fascinating seeing the varying attitudes displayed here.

I'd be really interested to know, from those who don't see a problem with his genitalia being clearly displayed in public, where they feel the line is? Where does indecent exposure kick in, in reference to this particular situation? What more could he show before you deemed it unacceptable? Or would you be comfy with him in even less clothing?

It's not a beach. He's a server in a cafe.

Some seemed to be saying it was fine as long as the penis was flaccid. Calling on school biology lessons mainly, I understand that men can get unbidden erections several (many?) times every day…… so culturally, the expectation is that clothes are loose enough that the erection isn’t displayed. Hardly the case here!

This

there are so many real problems to address - child poverty, the growing number of normal peol who can’t pay their bills not to mention the destruction of the planet through climate change - but these are of course much harder problems to address, must feel better to write a complaint to a local cafe Nero, lol.

//

You do realise that many of us are capable of caring about many things, all at once, don't you? And many of us are engaged in action to address those many, many things? I have often wondered how, as you point out, when there are so many things happening in the world right now, some individuals can afford so much time navel gazing and pondering their gender or rabidly reporting people women who misgender them or share SM posts questioning gender ideology. You know, when there's so much mugger stuff going on. But I'm sure they have the headspace to worry about many things simultaneously too.

Good email OP and especially sticking to the uniform showing inappropriate body parts.

Don't get me wrong, I genuinely have every sympathy for anyone who feels like they were born in the wrong body. And good on them if they achieve peace and find happiness. I fully support that.

//

This.

And like you say, it does not however make it acceptable to behave and dress in a way that makes others uncomfortable. No matter what your reasons, especially when any challenge or expression of discomfort will be met with the totally non specific, lazy yet brilliantly shaming "your transphobic " shite.

Other people are not here for your validation.

@Acunningruse Id be really interested to know if their clothing changes following the observation.

If not please do consider emailing again (from a different account?) as it seems they are willing to listen.

A man forcing others to engage in his sexual fetish in a public place because he is protected because he is a transwoman is the thin end of the wedge here.

Belief in this ideology means you agree to and support -

Cheating men claiming to be women stealing their hard fought for places in sport,

A biological man claiming to be a woman being able to administer intimate care in a medical setting to any woman or girl when a regular, boundary respecting guy wouldn't insist;

Hopefully the Cass report may trigger an urgent change here but - young people being given puberty blockers/cross sex hormones and healthy body parts replaced by pretend ones.

I can't believe people don't see the bigger picture.

Your faith that the younger generations in the west will become more tolerant is a bit premature I think.
Girls are getting UTI infections as a result of not drinking all day so that they can avoid the school toilets because there are boys in them.
Males are being fooled into relationships with other males. I know of two cases in my country of young men being jailed because they beat the shit out of other men who conned them into relationships, they only found out during sex, when they realised that it wasn’t a girl.
Females are losing places and prizes in sports because they have no hope of winning against males, they are also being injured by them and females are already beginning to resist playing against male bodies.
Females are being raped in schools, prisons and hospital wards by men identifying as women. The word woman and mother are being lost because of this ideology, so many children have been harmed by inappropriate medications and medical procedures.
You might just find that this is going to flip, and the longer it takes to get rid of all this stuff the more damage is done and the bigger the backlash will be, and that backlash will come, despite all the hate crime laws that are trying to force compliance.
Generation Alpha are very likely to dismantle this if it’s not already been done before they reach maturity, because they are the ones at the sharp end right now.
So many people with gender dysphoria who just want to fit in are not in agreement with what’s being done in their name. It’s the middle aged AGPs that are behind this movement that are trying to force compliance, and they are likely to take full advantage of the lack of boundaries and the easy access to females this gives them. This will come to light in time.
Realty always wins in the end and the lie could only be upheld with no debate, the light of truth is beginning to be shone on this and the Cass Report is just the beginning. I saw a comment somewhere that said that Cass isn’t the end or even the beginning of the end, but that it is the end of the beginning, I think that’s very much the case, WPATH has been exposed, detransitioners are now visible and there are many lawsuits to come.
This is a house of cards that’s been built on sand, and it will fall eventually, because at the end of the day it doesn’t even matter if a man has some kind of “female pattern “ brain, he still has a male skeleton, male physiology, a prostate, a male reproductive system and sex drive, and male DNA, therefore he is and will always be, a man.

@tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz
Exactly that! 👏🏻

Well, only time will tell just who fell
And who’s been left behind
(When you go your way and I go mine) sorry couldn’t resist ; )

Not much point trying to convince people with views like many on this thread that their feelings and opinions are based in gender polarity and stereotypes and that your fears are hyped and stoked from quarters such as the UK tabloid press, right wing and certain US right wing types, don’t even need to mention names. Yes, the backlash is indeed already happening and it’s led by those people, and their agenda is much more sinister than you realize. By stoking panic and fear about the vastly exaggerated dangers of transgender people (who are themselves some of the most discriminated against and vulnerable groups in society, you can check statistics since you’re so fond of them) these right wing conservative groups are diverting attention from their misogynistic backlash against women’s rights and equality on the whole, by making us all focus on this tiny little part of gender issues. It’s like the famous cartoon of a bank manager sitting in his chair with the occupy wall street movement protesting outside and saying “introduce them to identity politics”.

I agree we don’t need to go down the rabbit hole of never ending genders and pronouns involved in identity politics etc etc, but for a different reason than many posters on here. Not because I think it’s dangerous and bad, to the contrary, it’s part of the dissolution of fixed gender norms which are inherent to all class societies and patriarchies, but because it’s ultimately a distraction. But instead of getting caught on the way to liberation and arguing at the costa counter about a man’s right to wear tights (while Trump and company are laughing all the way to the White House) we need to just shrug and let the detail go and focus on the bigger struggles, let men wear tights and women wear suits and move on to focus on the world we want. What does it look like and how can we dream it up? The younger generations, the ones who aren’t afraid, can do that without getting bogged down over clothing items. I doubt there’s anyone under 35 on this thread, if even under 40, so I rest my case.

Let’s pick it up in 20 years and see where it all landed!
(I’ll be the one in tights)

A final point - what makes someone uncomfortable is entirely personal and cultural. In Saudi Arabia, seeing women’s body outlines or hair makes men uncomfortable and so women are forced to cover up. In Afghanistan, even seeing women’s eyes make men uncomfortable.

What gives someone else the right to control other people’s bodies and how the dress? As long as no physical harm is done, then it is nobody else’s prerogative to control other people’s bodies, especially not in a private establishment. In public, rules around dress and appropriateness is made by the ruling government, in a democratic society hopefully somewhat in close alignment with the views of the majority, and these views change over time and from country to country. There are NO universal norms for appropriate sense of dress over time and space!

costa coffee is a privately owned business so the management decides what is appropriate attire. If they’ve decided to sack or reprimand the person the OP chose to complain about, that is their choice, if not, it’s the OP’s choice if she want to frequent that establishment again or not (apparently she went back at least once after her initial experience, so can’t had been too traumatic)