There's nothing I can do about this, is there?

[Acunningruse]

Visited a different city today for work and went to a branch of Caffè Nero. I was served by what was very clearly a man, despite his attempt to look female and the fact he was wearing a she/her badge. Said man was wearing extremely tight leggings which, as he was wearing a waist-length t-shirt, meant his manhood was obviously visible. His appearance was a source of mumbling/muttering in the queue and he seemed to be enjoying the attention with a lot of hair-flicking.

I m not able to articulate why this made me so uncomfortable- other than the fact that no way in hell would I want to share a bathroom or changing room with this person.

But there's nothing at all to be done, is there? As any objection would surely be met with accusations of "discrimination " and "be kind".

Just so so frustrating. I just wanted to scream "you are not a woman!!!!" But I can't, can I.

et men wear tights and women wear suits

I've worn trousers now for more than 50 years (not exclusively, I like skirts and dresses) and not a single person has ever had a problem with this and I grew up in what people usually consider a fairly conservative part of continental Europe. Also, most of my peers spent their teenage years fancying Adam Ant or David Bowie. You can only think this is in any way progressive if you haven't the faintest clue of life more than a few years ago.

@Goldfishonabike

Well, only time will tell just who fell
And who’s been left behind

///

Aye luv, tell that to the detransitioners who are now stuck in surgically mutilated bodies, with horrific bone density issues and a lifetime of never experiencing sexual pleasure.

And coz you luvs a bit of Tay Tay -

'Cause if you dare, you'll see the glare
Of everyone you burned just to get there
It's coming back around

@Goldfishonabike your point is ridiculous. You are talking about social norms. Are you actually now suggesting that there should be no social norms in the UK and that everyone should go out naked if they want to?

An accepted social norm here is that men don’t have cock and balls on show in leggings (excepting ballet dancers etc). Therefore it’s perfectly reasonable that the OP objects and wishes to draw this to the managements attention.

If I went to the dentist and he was dressed up in cock and ball leggings I’d have to wonder what the hell was wrong with him as it’s so very clearly abnormal behaviour.

To compare a fetishist enjoying showing his cock and balls clearly through his clothes in a coffee shop, to women in other countries having to cover up by law or risk being taken by Morality Police is highly disrespectful

I think the extreme reverse ferreting which is still happening in the light of the Cass Report shows that actually the tide isn't quite heading in the direction you think ...

In fact, women in strict Muslim countries having to wear Burkas is exactly an expression of a male sexual fetishized view of the female body

Yes the backlash is very strong as with the undoing of traditional gender constructs a whole lot of people stand to loose their power and privileges so naturally the patriarchy and it’s unwitting supporters aren’t going to give up without a huge fight and it may not be in my lifetime that the fight is won. But the needle is being moved, otherwise the backlash wouldn’t be so ferocious

at which point have I condoned hormone therapy and surgery of children and teens? You’re getting things mixed up here. That’s a separate issue.
Theres a long way from allowing adult men to wear tights to allowing children to undergo invasive surgeries that cannot be reversed and I would never condone that or allow my own children to have that.
to me that’s a system failure and a safeguarding issue.
when new things happen lots of things go wrong and this is one of the lessons we should all take onboard - which I understand the Cass repot says too, begged healthcare for trans people is needed.

But it's the thin end of the wedge.

It's a small creep creep of small actions, erosion of boundaries.

By saying this is ok and peoples responses to this man is wrong, you are condoning the bigger picture. The harm in the report has been ra ra'd along by the likes of Stonewall and Mermaids and no matter where you then try and draw your line you will then become a bigot too. So your stuffed

Well I think most people wouldn’t go around naked even if they could, give the weather in this country is pretty awful most the time so think the novelty would quickly wear off.

the people in the country can elect the political leaders who represent the social norms they want to see. I don’t have strong views on how other people choose to dress, as long as they don’t tell me how to dress. I DO have strong feelings on that and for this reason don’t like visiting orthodox churches for example as I loathe being told to cover my legs and hair by some orthodox male priest. I can, however, choose not to enter the churches an often I choose not to. If I do, I grumble and cover my hair. My employer has a dress code too, and I’ve accepted that by taking the job I have. So in this case it’s up to Cafe Nero what attire it deems
appropriate, not up to the particular sensibilities of one customer.

Are you in all seriousness suggesting that by allowing men to wear tights,
you’re contributing to a lack of safeguarding in the health system?

Meh, people should be able to wear what they want as long as they are decently covered. Go to another coffee shop if you don’t like it.

the correlation of social norms with shortcomings in the public sector is a fallacy an a master stroke by the right wing propaganda machines.

• no, allowing social norms around gender to change does not automatically result in failures in the health system
• yes, trans people and kids can be supported and helped and allowed to be who they are in the health system without shaming them and eroding their right to exist culturally
• the healthcare for trans people and especially has failed and needs to be improved, but not by fighting the allies of trans people culturally, but by giving more funding, applying better procedures and learning from the mistakes made

What you won’t admit is that taking away the rights of women by colonising the very concept of womanhood and using legislation to silence women who object, is in itself as mysoginistic as it comes. We are entitled to boundaries, we are entitled to withhold consent, we are absolutely entitled to say no to men seeing our naked bodies or touching us intimately without our consent.
No woman has the right to give consent on behalf of other women, particularly not in the service of men and especially not to give access to women's bodies without our consent. Women who have been raped by men should not be then forced to have their vagina penetrated by a mans fingers during a forensic examination or have to discuss her rape with a male, as many males get sexual satisfaction from just hearing about a woman’s rape. This is well known, and documented fact by the way.
It’s not just about looks or voice, we are biological and have biological responses, pheromones are a thing and a woman can smell when a man is aroused, even subconsciously.
This ideology comes from a patriarchal system of enforcing men’s desires and priorities on women, it is in itself patriarchal to the core and is in the tradition of controlling women just as much as the chastity belt, scolds bridal, fgm and the witch burnings. It is, in fact, a form of rape.
There is a reason why women who support this are called handmaids, because they are validating and enforcing a patriarchal construct that takes away women’s boundaries and the very premise that males need to obtain consent. It is abusive and is in actual fact a grave breach of women’s human rights, all groups are entitled to rights, you cannot elevate one group above another and call that justice, it’s not, it’s oppression.

I know, it’s beyond belief, I despair in the human race sometimes 😢

@FlexIt 'An accepted social norm here is that men don’t have cock and balls on show in leggings (excepting ballet dancers etc). Therefore it’s perfectly reasonable that the OP objects and wishes to draw this to the managements attention.'

Exactly. Though ballet dancers don't put everything on display, either. See Noel Coward's reaction:

When a male dancer in Coward's London revue Sigh No More forgot to wear the proper support, Noel said to the choreographer:
"For God's sake, go and tell that young man to take that Rockingham tea service out of his tights."

😂

In 20 years time the NHS will still be trying to ring fence the compo budget it'll have to keep paying out to all the kids who got given harming blockers, hormones and surgeries and are now prematurely aged and suffering horrible chronic conditions and disabilities.

Helen Webberley and Susie Green will be writing pleading letters to the parole board

Jolyon Maugham will be begging for loose change on street corners

And little OJ will finally be allowed to have an iphone in his secure unit, from which he can shout at women on twitter.

To not see that this ideology IS the patriarchy, writ large, is beyond blind, it’s delusional.

This thread brings to mind the issues around Drag Time Story Time, which kind of humans does it benefit to lower boundaries around what is acceptable for a man to wear in public and around children?

It's all part of the same drive to get people to go along with other people's fetishes.

Are you in all seriousness suggesting that by allowing men to wear tights,
you’re contributing to a lack of safeguarding in the health system?

//

First off it's not just a man wearing tights. Obviously.
It's a man dressing in a way that deliberately emphasises his penis when it's not appropriate.

What part of thin end of a wedge aren't you getting?

By being ok with this you are absolutely heading towards being ok with an ideology which is causing harm to women, kids and young people.

To not see that this ideology IS the patriarchy, writ large, is beyond blind, it’s delusional.

Yep, it boils down to this. But the TRA's absolutely get it and I think this poster gets it too.

A woman walked past my table on holiday wearing thong bikini bottoms. Her swinging arse cheeks nearly touched! She was undoubtedly a woman. I didn't like that either. I thought it was inappropriate in the restaurant and there were signs up saying "No Swimwear". So she was breaching the rules, although I didn't take it further than an envious glance.

Some items of clothing are not appropriate. As the person in the coffee shop presumably has a staff uniform policy, the person is choosing to wear something revealing and inappropriate. The person needs to be told to wear different clothing.

In the West it goes against the cultural norm for men (or indeed women) to wear clothing that reveals the outline of the genitals outside of a few exceptions:

Sports that require tight clothing for performance reasons (swimming, cycling, etc): fine. Clubs, parties, rock concerts where everyone is knowing what they are going to see: fine. Beach: fine.

An ordinary retail environment where you are serving members of the public: not fine.

It's really not hard to understand.

I don’t want to see a man’s cock and balls in a cafe. I don’t care what sex he is pretending to be. I don’t consent to this.

It's really not hard to understand.

For a few posters it apparently is. Wild.

What if this man was wearing this outfit in a cafe in a soft play? Would this still be acceptable for these posters? Or it is just women that need to put up and shut up with this.