There's nothing I can do about this, is there?

[Acunningruse]

Visited a different city today for work and went to a branch of Caffè Nero. I was served by what was very clearly a man, despite his attempt to look female and the fact he was wearing a she/her badge. Said man was wearing extremely tight leggings which, as he was wearing a waist-length t-shirt, meant his manhood was obviously visible. His appearance was a source of mumbling/muttering in the queue and he seemed to be enjoying the attention with a lot of hair-flicking.

I m not able to articulate why this made me so uncomfortable- other than the fact that no way in hell would I want to share a bathroom or changing room with this person.

But there's nothing at all to be done, is there? As any objection would surely be met with accusations of "discrimination " and "be kind".

Just so so frustrating. I just wanted to scream "you are not a woman!!!!" But I can't, can I.

Employers can be held vicariously liable for the so called discriminatory actions of customers.... I'm on the OPs side here, barista sounds like a real peach, but Nero are probably too scared of a tribunal claim to take the customers side here.

Yes I do realize that I am also a woman living in the real world (who have experienced attempted rape twice) I don’t need mumsnet to tell me that.

what I do know though is that the men who tried to rape me where 1)a successful macho footballer 2) a total ordinary guy I met in a bar.

Not a trans person in tights. Probably the least likely to be dangerous to women. Rather, trans people are frontiers of gender fluidity where ideas of male and female characteristics merge and change, and that makes a lot of people uncomfortable (just look at the discomfort of a man flinging his hair lol - or cry..)

what’s dangerous to women is traditional ideals of masculinity and patriarchy, not trans people. Yes, in some policy situations the focus on trans rights can mess up things and take focus and rights away from women. But that’s the fault of rigid systems, not trans people. Systems need to change, not people

Dear God that sounds grim.

I'd think poorly of the cafe if someone was showing her tits conspicuously, but I would not take it as an act of aggression and assertion of Male power the way I feel when someone deliberately shows their penis.

I think you'll find @Goldfishonabike that there is a well-established route from flashing to sexual assault to worse. Wayne Couzens was just one of many. And the reason is that it is part of the same kind of behaviour. This is just "I dare you to challenge me" flashing under lycra, Isla Bryson (also not a very nice person) style

Women also have every option of not showing off their boobs or their pantyline, and yet that is ok?
look I’m not saying it isn’t a bit annoying to dress like that. But in all seriousness, what is the harm done? I’d rather have a trans person showing his penis through leggings and flinging his hair around than some toxic masculine football coach shouting at my boy or listening to male colleagues “locker room talk” and not being able to bloody complain about that anywhere..you’re focusing on the wrong problems

If traditional ideas of men were loosened to included pony tails and painted nails, then our friend in the cafe would not have needed 'she/her' badge. They would never have thought they weren't a man, would they? That is taking the badges at face value of 'I really think I'm a woman'. Which may not be the only reason for the she/her business.

Yea it is well known that many trans people assault women!?

It is, yes @Goldfishonabike

It is indeed,thanks for the reminder.

@Goldfishonabike

MOJ stats - of the trans identified males in prison nearly half are there for sex offences vs around 20% of the rest of the male prison population. There is nothing to suggest this subset of males poses less risk to women and children and a growing body of evidence that they pose more.

If he was waiting on or clearing tables that little (?) display would be at eye level and inches away. Most customers don't want a side order of visible cock with their coffee and cake.

Complain.

@Goldfishonabike when you look at the offending profiles of trans prisoners it appears that sex offenders are over represented.

"Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3% 13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%"
Source: Evidence submitted to the parliamentary committee

Report

@HermioneWeasley snap!

Do women wear leggings with a regular t-shirt, does the dress code allow this? Or are they in proper trousers? Employees of either sex should be held to the same standards.

Hmmm i have a whiff of another version of a 68 year old biologist in the room, hope i am right or i shall feel very ashamed.

@Goldfishonabike You realise that women can campaign for our rights in a myriad of ways don't you? Being gender critical doesn't preclude us from other campaigning, quite the opposite.

And I have to disagree that transwomen are leading the way in gender fluidity because donning a dress and a shit wig and claiming you are a woman is not progressive IMO.

Just mention the barely concealed genitalia in your complaint, not the wig or anything else.

You're uncomfortable for a very specific reason - your fight or flight was trying to kick in.

You subconsciously found this man a threat.

Many of us here, myself included, have at least once in our lives ignored this feeling and paid a very high price.

You were obviously safe in this particular environment and that man was no real threat to you but if you were alone with him in a darkened area your body would be screaming at you to get away. Fight or flight. Survival mode.

This man was enjoying his power. Re-claim yours and please complain. The suggestions here that you focus on his genitalia rather than his half-arsed attempt to look female from the waist up are sound.

Where is the management at this store? I assume the manager is female and too afraid to tell him to present in an acceptable, inoffensive way.

I also assume goldfish is a man as women just know (even if they feel confused or uncomfortable) when they're in front of a man who likes intimidating women.

What's the betting that, if a female employee were to wear something super tight that very clearly showed the full shape of her breasts, so that it was the first thing that anybody couldn't help but see - even though breasts are not able to be used to rape anybody, so not considered a potential threat - her manager would be straight on to her, ordering her to dress more appropriately?

This is one of the things that causes such divisions - when TRAs demand more rights than everybody else, often obtained by directly taking them from other people.

If this person had just worn the uniform as appropriate, like everybody else, nobody would have cared about his own beliefs, preferences and identity - just like they wouldn't care about anybody else's there, as long as they do their job.

I don't understand why Goldfish thinks that British culture isn't good enough. Men wearing tights/leggings which show off their cock and balls whilst serving coffee is generally considered inappropriate.

I complained to a local pub running a drag event - it was sort of a normal event with a drag host which is was advertised as that, I think it was a quiz but can't quite remember. The pub was in the town I live in. I phoned up and just said very calmly that I understood that some people would like this but I did to think it appropriate for a family pub and would no longer go there. The phone was put down on me!!! Clearly you are not allowed to have an opinion

It's a coffee shop. It's the school holidays. It's not a German sauna, a gym, a pub or a bar. There will almost certainly be children there. They should not have to see a man's visible cock and balls parading up and down by the coffee machine and they certainly shouldn't have them hovering a few inches away from their faces if he's tending tables.

@Goldfishonabike it's not just you, I'm a bit baffled as to what they've actually done wrong.
So they're wearing tight trousers.
Erm, Ok?
,😕
Seems about the gist of it, apart from the OP thinking the (wig in their eyes, can't be hair) is a problem too. Even if hair is tied back

Why all the 'they's? The guy was wearing a she/her pronoun badge. If you're going to excuse and minimise the display of lady penis, do at least put some effort in and use the guy's preferred pronouns.
Tsk, tsk.

I don't think you need to mention the gender/trans question- just note that the dress was inappropriate and genitals were clearly visible. A camel's hoof would be inappropriate too,
I did google and see that rivals such as starbucks have a policy that leggings are only appropriate worn under a skirt etc - not discriminatory