Older generations show resistance to trans rights

[Inauthentic]

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

While we ponder why these supporters of trans rights cannot list them so we can check if they are the same trans rights that many of us support too, here is a reminder of just why affirming only health care for distressed children and young people is such a concern.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5021764-wpath-leaks

There are plenty of links to studies and papers contained in the posts in this thread, as well as the report that was the topic of the thread. This Wpath thread also shows some great other examples of extreme activist tactics for anyone who has not really encountered them before.

There is a great many links in this break it down thread. This includes sports, medical papers, and single sex spaces papers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?latest=0

I also suggest that readers watch out for Wednesday’s publication of the Cass report.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5044674-cass-review-out-on-wednesday?page=1

Fine, I’ll bite again. Trans people want to be accepted, to have the right not to be discriminated against or attacked based on their transgender status.

There are lots of good points made here, and I even said in the first place I agree that there’s issues which need ironed out and you’re right that women are helping in that, so that common sense will prevail in the end. It doesn’t need to be quite so charged on here though, yes it’s ‘this board’ but this thread is trending hence why you are getting other opinions. There’s no need for such anger, snide remarks etc, it’s really unpleasant.

Fine, I’ll bite again. Trans people want to be accepted, to have the right not to be discriminated against or attacked based on their transgender status.

Fully agree with that, but males need to stay out of women's spaces and stop taking our stuff and people need to stop pretending they are actually women. The word is taken, women need it to be clear.

Do you agree that the protection of female people’s sex based rights and needs involve ‘discriminating against’ male people? And that this protection should continue because male people remain male people and do not change sex?

I think it is important to be specific about the use of words such as ‘discrimination’ because it gets used quite often without clarification about what that actually refers to.

I think your points are still ambiguous and that it is likely that many posters agree with them. It doesn’t really answer the question in details however. It is just more of the same generalisations.

at 18 I would rather pee in a bush than in a unisex toilet that isn't a single locked stall (like Starbucks) the issue around toilets is they make the women's unisex

for example there is one set of toilets in my town they narrow towards the end there isn't room for two to pass (bizarrely the one at the far end is wider for disabled access) so if you use ANY toilet but the one on the end nearest the door you will get stuck by a predator and you can do nothing about it plus half the locks are broken It's simply unsafe and it's not the only example

I have a radar key for my disabled son I will use it for myself if necessary but I shouldn't feel the need to I should be safe (technically I can use it due to my ibs I try not to)

This is the point where I would ordinarily post something facetious and generally take the piss. This time I won't. This has been an absolutely fascinating thread that I have found to be thoroughly illuminating. It has been a distillate of about 10 years of FWR in a single thread.

PS. I am worried about this cervix vs prostate thing. India Willoughby is convinced that IW has a cervix but actually does have a prostate.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to snap. It's galling when it's taken so much to get this far to have it apparently waved away as unimportant.

I am angry because I think so very many people have been harmed and let down by people who are not in good faith, or who at best are deeply confused, and by some who seem to be willing to sacrifice other people's wellbeing in pursuit of their own ends.

I am staggered at how 'gender' has supplanted 'sex' through all levels of society, how the bloody NHS got so far gone they sterilised children. They've sterilised children! Given teenage girls mastectomies!

Anyway. My comment wasn't directed at you and I'm sorry to have made it look like I was attacking you, it was unintentional.

@hihelenhi

My personal response to your points.

• A gender identity could be classed as how a person perceives themselves based on environmental stimuli related to members of either sex. Essentially it is where they see themselves relative to the people they have encountered rather than an authentic account of who they actually are because the internal self is built relative to the external. To elaborate on this further, an effeminate male living in the American Bible Belt man feel he does not fit with the males he is encountering and thus think he has a female identity… whereas if he was born in a major city such as NYC or London where there are lots of effeminate males he may find he is more comfortable with a male identity. It is all entirely relative to what a person experiences - the person perceives their male or female gender using their points of reference for what the female and male gender is. It’s arguable that people who perceive themselves as a different gender may have been either exposed to more stereotypical males and females growing up or may naturally conform to stereotypes.
• To my knowledge sex is assigned at birth based on external genitalia, however you may have sex assigned prior to birth and via tests where sex is identified. Some are intersex but this is rare and due to things going wrong in development. Sex assigned at birth is in line with that at conception, unless something has gone wrong developmentally to result with a mixed phenotype.
• When someone identifies with a particular gender it is all to do with their own personal schema for what that gender is, and little to do with the range traits and expressions of females and males. To my mind identifying is not the same as being, you may identify while being in denial of or unaccepting of the true self.
• I think where gender identity (which is arguably different to biological sex) differs from age and race is that it is built within the mind, as I’ve described, and is individual to each person based on their own personal experiences and perceptions… the gender identity, how they perceive themselves is then expressed in behaviours, mannerisms, communication and so forth…. Whereas age is a fact based on the time since birth and the race just is… (though incidentally there are a lot of gray areas there… for instance people who have mixed heritage but classify themselves as black or white based on how they perceive themselves, what their upbringing has been and what they look like in the mirror).
• You absolutely can call yourself female; I am a biological female, but I don’t fit with stereotypes that I am aware of, if I was growing up now I would probably say I am a ‘they’… however I personally feel it’s a bit ludicrous, complicated, I’m fond of correct grammar and I have confidence in myself as a woman that I can be myself without having to fit into anyone else’s preconceived ideas, or even my own. If all women who believed themselves to be partly male, based on stereotypes, then identified as non binary or male, this would then reinforce sexist and stereotypical perceptions of what a woman is, malign female progress and essentially give confirmation of the validity of anyone who is strongly focused on gender stereotypes (such as trans, patriarchal society and so on)… so it isn’t an awesome idea for women to do this, much better if they work on self acceptance and not giving a damn what people think if they don’t ‘fit’ with the mould.

@hihelenhi

hope that’s given you enough to chew over; I didn’t write the wiki definition, just posted it as an example of what gender identity could be described as and to show that there is no consensus… which I would say makes it difficult to write it into law if there isn’t an agreed upon coherent definition.

You also said that you ‘think it is blown out of proportion here’ and you personally don’t care that male people access female toilets even when rape victims are telling you that they do care. Your attitude is to prioritise male people over the needs of the female people because you, personally, don’t care about toilets.

Why do you expect feminists not to push back on that opinion on a feminist board? Or indeed on a public discussion board called Mumsnet where many of us are mothers and fully understand the needs of female people?

For disagreeing with gender ideology, good women have lost jobs, been threatened, assaulted, bullied, blacklisted, seen all work dry up, suffered horrible stress. And of course those of us in Scotland are now all wary of a knock at the door.

And all in service of some bullshit ideology that people can't even actually articulate.

I am 60 odd, have friends who are gay, one at 80 who was female but had part sex change, all kept hush, hush but we all knew!
I loved him to bits for the person he was.
but on to whether trans men should use female changing rooms, I think it’s not right!
males should use men’s, females should use ladies & trans should have their own spaces to change full stop. I stopped using our local baths where they introduced a changing village, plus changing the sauna to mixed, I wasn’t comfortable & that was before all this trans stuff today. I take people as I find them.

Trans people are not the most targeted. That will be women. The only times I have thought my life has been directly in danger (involving threats and knives) is by males.The first man I ever saw in a dress was masturbating at me and the other schoolgirls who walked past the park toilets so subconsciously that made me realise some men in dresses may have a sexual motive. He had makeup on and a mans coat and boots so no idea what he called himself. I did feel threatened by him.

I know and have taught many children who, by the time they are in 6th form, have been through the whole pansexual/ non binary phase and are now happy with their bodies and their sexuality. They have stopped believing in gender ideology.

I only know a few young adult transpeople. They vary individually as much as any group of people do. The only common factor is that they centre themselves and talk about how they feel and gender ideology constantly. There make sure everyone is aware of their views.

Toilets is a BIG thing with me. That’s because I have saved someone from dying by seeing their blue arm sticking out the toilet door gap. That could be me, you or your children In the future. My previously healthy Dd had a massive first seizure in an enclosed space where no one saw. Seizures, strokes, heart attacks, self harm, sexual assaults, rapes and diabetic hypos are now increased risks behind these new private enclosed toilets the government has said it prefers as a design even in single sex toilets because of this ideology. This is because even the abled bodied male designers realise mix sex toilets are dangerous. They think in terms of peeping toms and camera phones rather than disabled people and women and what could happen if you restrict the safeguarding visibility factor.
Statistics: 1 in 106 people are epileptic (Epilepsy Society). At least 1 pupil was raped in a British school premises per school day (Hansard, 2016).

I hope your child’s mental and physical health is much better. He/She will be bucking the statistics. But to suggest your child’s experience overrides everyone’s safety, particularly the medically vulnerable and girls, is not educated nor forward thinking. My daughter had the most dignified care by young female nurses at the most distressing and vulnerable time of her life. But thats why girls and women’s rights matter. We need to make sure we can have female nurses. So that the most vulnerable girls and women are not targeted by men pretending to be female nurses.

Gender ideology has and is directly affecting laws and practices that affect us all detrimentally.

I don’t know what you mean about ‘earning your beliefs’? Presumably it means you are a true believer because of what your child has been through. I realise you must feel that you can’t not believe, as being a non-believer would mean your child’s suffering is in vain.

However it must be said that you can’t change sex and, at the very least for future medical appointments, you and your child must be honest about her/his sex as it affects their health.

I think where gender identity (which is arguably different to biological sex) differs from age and race is that it is built within the mind, as I’ve described, and is individual to each person based on their own personal experiences and perceptions… the gender identity, how they perceive themselves is then expressed in behaviours, mannerisms, communication and so forth…. Whereas age is a fact based on the time since birth

I would argue that gender identity (as the term is usually used) is certainly different to bio sex. But where gender identity is all that socially constructed personal and subjective stuff related to sex, you could easily describe a sense of all those things related to age or ethnicity. A young person could feel that they do or don't behave as a young person should. An Asian person could feel they don't fit in with the social norms of their community and find more in common with another culture. And that would all be fine and within the realms of normal human experience.

But the real difference with gender identity is that many in society feel that gender identity is a replacement for sex for laws and policies, while almost no one thinks laws around ages of school attendance, age to buy alcohol or consent to sex should be based on "age identity".

Let's talk about human rights eh?

These are the articles of the European Convention of Human Rights:

Article 2: Right to life
Article 3: Freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment
Article 4: Freedom from slavery and forced labour
Article 5: Right to liberty and security
Article 6: Right to a fair trial
Article 7: No punishment without law
Article 8: Respect for your private and family life, home and correspondence
Article 9: Freedom of thought, belief and religion
Article 10: Freedom of expression
Article 11: Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12: Right to marry and start a family
Article 14: Protection from discrimination in respect of these rights and freedoms

Which ones don't apply to transpeople? I'm curious.

Let's start with article 2. Where is anyone asking for transpeople to be killed? Medical treatment is in part covered by the right to life. But if we are talking about transpeople they need to be able to make informed decisions and there isn't evidence that transition lengthens life expectancy (indeed much to say the opposite) or that it reduces suicide. There's a due diligence issue there for doctors as they should act to protect the lives of transpeople - that includes not doing harm on the basis of hokem pokem snake oil sellers in the absence of evidence.

With regards to children and transition, there needs to be due diligence to ensure that medicalisation doesn't fall foul of article 3. Arguably if the evidence mounts that there's problems surrounding side effects or inability to properly consent there's a potential clash. Are 'transkids' AND kids who identify as trans but later detransition covered by this? Yes.

Are transpeople covered by this? Yes. This doesn't mean they are entitled to access to female changing rooms though because that might affect women's rights under article 3. What it means is you have to make accomodations which are fair to both and take into account how this can be tackled. In theory ou could discretely tell a transwoman that they MUST use gender neutral facilities but you couldn't bellow it across a room causing embarrassment for example.

Transpeople are entitled to freedom of expression under article 10. That includes how they dress.

Women are entitled to be gender critical under article 9. Being gender critical is WORIADS. It is a mainstream position. Cos biological reality. There's been lots of attempts by trans activists to say women don't have this right. Some on this thread by shouting 'transphobia' willynilly.

Women have freedom to associate and assemble under article 11. We've seen attempts to stop that by transactivists to prevent meetings of women. Women have not attempted the reverse in this country.

I could carry on, but hopefully somebody is actually reading rather than pretending they know everything about rights and demanding human rights that they are unable to define whilst trying to remove rights and protections for women and children and rather ironically, transpeople themselves.

This conversation about 'what rights do transactivists want' are highly relevant because they covered by the ECHR but so are women and both must be accommodated. You can't actually remove the rights of women without undermining the rights of all humans - including transpeople because exceptionalism in this manner makes it acceptable to remove rights from any other group at some point - which is a weakening of existing rights for transpeople to do this.

The ECHR is a higher court than the UK so this holds the Equality Act to account in effect.

So yes, which human rights is it that trans people lack? And how do you install them without undermining the human rights of... wait for it... Transpeople?!

Cos that's how the principles of human rights work! 🤣

Except the fuck nuggets who spout this shite don't know this and instead bleat things like 'gc women all voted Brexit cos they are against human rights' (despite the ECHR being separate to the EU much to the annoyance of many a Brexiteer). Ironically GC women worth their salt understand this cos they understand their own rights are reliant on the ECHR.

Take away the existing rights of women and you remove the principle that all human rights belong to all humans. Thus jeopardising the rights and protections of transpeople.

Take away the existing rights of transpeople and you remove the principle that all human rights belong to all humans. Thus jeopardising the rights and protections of women.

Magic this isn't it?!

Yet we get told repeatedly that old farty GC women want to kill all transpeople or otherwise remove their rights.

Bonkers isn't it?

This isn't America which doesn't have this paradox. The paradox is really rather brilliant don't you think? Because Americans don't have this paradox they don't have the mutual self interest to continue to protect existing rights in law and perhaps are more skeptical. It possibly explains the starker alignment for those into progressive rights to align Democrat to prevent the risk of fascist policies removing human rights from Americans. But the same risk does not apply to signatories of the ECHR. American politics are shocking horror, therefore different to UK politics. Who'd think?

Cos hey, isn't being in Europe (note not the EU - you don't have to be in the EU to be a member of the EHCR) and being more socialist and liberal than the US, great!?

But obviously' I hate all trans people and want to remove all their rights cos I'm an old bigoted fart who voted Brexit'. Fucks sake. Yet more batshit prejudiced bullshit stereotypes - which dont reflect reality and do reflect the staggering levels of ignorance demonstrated by transactivists (including those ones who don't identify as transactivists but promote and push transgenderism and the removal of women's rights) without engaging in understanding what the fuck human rights are an issue and why they might be undermining transpeoples rights at the same time.

I shall say it.

They are thick. They should be educating themselves. They could start with reading the principles and articles of the ECHR rather than lecturing us on listening to transpeople and educating ourselves about transpeople. Na mate get with the programme on actual law. It's much more fucking important and relevant. You might be able to use it to defend transpeoples existing rights under law!!!

Dickheads.

You mean like they already have in law under the ECHR? Like that?

See above.

Indeed tinysoxx, the current trend for female students to dehydrate themselves to avoid using the forced gender neutral toilets because they are uncomfortable is a very good reminder to some of the other reasons why prioritising male people is not kind and completely lacks empathy for female people.

Having read more of the posts re toilets, I stand corrected and add it to my list of issues. I was in a museum recently and the toilet was unisex and had urinals in it - that’s definitely a step too far 😂. It was not in the uk.

You mean against women's human rights under the ECHR? Those rights that transactivists are desperate to trample all over?

Utterly fascinating how many people bleating about human rights:
Do.Not.Understand.Their.Existing.Human.Rights.And.How.Human.Rights.Work!

Honest to God. It's staggering the level of hypocrisy and shooting ones self in the foot that pervades transactivism.

Ok. I take it you understand then the difference between legitimate and not legitimate discrimination.

So can you tell us if there are any rights that you think trans people should have that differ from what you think many posters here think they should have?

Yes. I have articulated them further back in the thread.

trans rights are just the right to exist without discrimination and violence which as you can imagine, still occurs. To be afforded the same decency in day to day living as others.

Where conflict occurs is when there are people who believe the above also includes access to women only spaces which of course, means trumping the rights of women to have sex based spaces.

Don't be stupid. It's all about fuzzy feelings not understanding the actual law and principles of law. Cos Transwomen are women and trans rights are human rights and education is what is needed for gender critical people not Trans Supporters.

I am ever so slightly pissed off at this conversation for reasons I won't post here.

Ok. I will ask you the same question as I asked on the top of this page.

Do you agree that the protection of female people’s sex based rights and needs involve ‘discriminating against’ male people? And that this protection should continue because male people remain male people and do not change sex?

I think it is important to be specific about the use of words such as ‘discrimination’ because it gets used quite often without clarification about what that actually refers to.

And what does ‘decency’ mean in regards to people’s rights.

50: full-on terf
Have two teens: full-on sick to the back teeth of dealing with the nonsense at school, to the point they will say things I never would

Yes. It all seems to be rather a lot of obfuscation and obliqueness in some posts on this thread. It seems that some posters seem to have rather deep prejudices about the posters on this board.