Older generations show resistance to trans rights

[Inauthentic]

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

Hate to say this but disabled loos are bad for being pushed into. If you google disabled toilets, you’ll get recent results of able bodied women and disabled women being seriously sexually assaulted in disabled toilets. Visibility is key for safeguarding. The toilet door gaps prevent lots of crime. That’s why single sex toilets with the door gaps and a way of going over the top to rescue anyone is the safest. You can also peer to see if anyone is lying in wait.

A gender identity could be classed as how a person perceives themselves based on environmental stimuli related to members of either sex. Essentially it is where they see themselves relative to the people they have encountered rather than an authentic account of who they actually are because the internal self is built relative to the external. To elaborate on this further, an effeminate male living in the American Bible Belt man feel he does not fit with the males he is encountering and thus think he has a female identity… whereas if he was born in a major city such as NYC or London where there are lots of effeminate males he may find he is more comfortable with a male identity. It is all entirely relative to what a person experiences - the person perceives their male or female gender using their points of reference for what the female and male gender is. It’s arguable that people who perceive themselves as a different gender may have been either exposed to more stereotypical males and females growing up or may naturally conform to stereotypes.

This is an interesting description. Any worthwhile description of “gender identity” usually boils down to imposed societal stereotypes. Which means it isn’t innate, a child can’t be born trans, and medicalisation on children isn’t being done because of an innate identity but because of stereotypes. Children’s puberty stopped for these reasons. Bodies ruined for these reasons.

You know how the saying goes.

'Start thinking now of reasons you supported sterilising children'.

You lost me at "Puberty blockers is a grey area"

It isnt. It is black and white.

Giving pre pubescent children medication that can affect the rest of their lives, including their fertility, when they are not old enough to understand the long term ramifications is very much NOT OK.

Ok, you don't think Man and Woman shpuld be the names of the two human sexes, you think Man and Woman are just names for different types of personality.

But what I don't get is

1. why do we need to give personality types names? And why just these two out of all the variations in human personality?

1. OK, for some reason you don't want to use the names Man and Woman for sex. But the two human sexes still exist and sex still has significant physical and social consequences. So it's something we still need to talk, write and potentially legislate about. If not Man and Woman, what names can we use for the two different human sexes?

Totally agree. But mostly commenting so I can say how much I like your name @PyongyangKipperbang 😆

Sorry. My last post was a bit unclear.

You say on one hand they shouldn’t be discriminated against, yet on the other you show that you do understand that in prioritising female people does require male people with trans identities to be discriminated against. And I believe we covered this earlier too.

It seems that maybe we need to qualify discrimination when discussing these rights. Because when considered further the ‘no discrimination’ does come with conditions.

I still think your points are too broad and could mean anything really. For instance trans people have the same rights as us all to live without harassment and violence. These are not additional rights and they have these already as we all do.

Are there any rights that they don’t have, in your view?

Broadly speaking, yes although I wouldn’t say it was discrimination against biological males to have female only spaces.

for me when I think about discrimination, I think about any hurdles marginalised groups may face such a job interview, from the police, or just from day to day interactions with the general public.

Good question.

I don’t believe trans people are asking for any additional rights because as you say, the rights are already there - human rights. However like other marginalised groups how well this works in day to day practise is obviously not great - whether that’s through unconscious bias or just out and out bias.
in my experience trans people just want to quietly crack on with things like the rest or us and are quite happy to use third gender neutral or unisex spaces. As JKR pointed out, trans people are also prone to violence from other men just as women are. They also face dealing with people making assumptions on them based on stereotypes.

That article is hilarious

If I were on an animal rights board, I would absolutely expect to explain what I meant by supporting animal rights. IMO one of the main purposes of the board would be to discuss what "animal rights" are or should be, as well as discussing how those rights should be balanced against other rights. Do I mean legal rights or ethical rights? Do I mean that animal should have exactly the same rights as humans or some lesser rights? In either case, what are those rights? How are they limited? Etc. Why go to that board if I don't want to talk about those things?

I'm not angry. That seems like an unwarranted assumption. I'm focused on my own life. I have CPTSD which could be set off by seeing a man in the women's loo. Even if mine is not, many of my friends' CPTSD will be set off.

I know teenage girls who participate in sports; many are trying to get sports scholarships. I know lesbians who worry about losing their spaces and feel pressure to have sex with trans women. I don't know any female prisoners but I don't understand why I shouldn't care about them. Are you suggesting that only prisoners or their families can care about how they're treated?

in my experience trans people just want to quietly crack on with things

Men want to quietly crack on with entering women’s spaces/sports/prisons hoping no one will notice, you mean.

like the rest of us

But it’s not like the rest of us. I don’t spend my life trying to go to places that aren’t meant for me or entering categories of sport that I’m not eligible for.

Excellent post, thank you!

Here's a very young woman expressing her view. Seems apt for this thread:

Yes, "growing up in an inclusive environment", is a non-rational factor that could bias people. And we can't just assume that every social change has to be a good one.

And let's unpack what "inclusive environment" means, because it could include things like the bullying of anyone with a dissenting viewpoint. Perhaps young people are less able to stand up to that kind of pressure and demand to conform.

We can look at the psychology of the different sides if we want, but ultimately we still have to examine the arguments, an approach that probably has more weight than worrying about generational differences.

In my early 40’s - I support the Trans community - have met some lovely people who have transitioned and feel no one should have a say over other people’s bodies!

I agree sports and puberty blockers are grey areas.

Again with the “grey area”.

In what circumstances would it be ok to stop a child’s puberty and deny them future fertility and sexual function?

In what circumstances is ok to let a male compete in the women’s sport category?

“I’m a lovely posh vegan labour voting middle class woman and all the transwomen I know here at my IT consultancy in Brighton are lovely posh middle class vegans just like me . Who wouldn't harm a fly and are just living their best lives.

“So I think that nasty lower class women criminals / asylum seekers /refugees / rape victims / mentally ill/ disabled / homeless women and girls should be forced to share their safe spaces / shower / get personal care from transwomen, whether they like it or not.

“I say this safe in the knowledge that my own money and privilege mean I won’t be put at risk in any way, only these other low life women. And I get to feel good with my virtue signalling and luxury opinions.”

According to trans activists, you don't support the trans community. Your position on puberty blockers and sport is anti-trans.

It's all in or you're a bigot. No debate.

Only sports and pb? Not prisons, hospital wards, asking for female healtchcare practitioners, communal changing rooms, domestic violence refuges, rape crisis centres, womens prizes, scolarships and jobs? What does 'grey area' mean? Sometimes some males allowed if they meet a certain criteria? What criteria would that be? What if this means these services and facilities now no longer are accessible by the majority of their service users? Where do these women go?

Saying in response I don't know is not an option. The government does not have the luxury of saying oh well, I don't know, so anyone proposing making all things mixed sex, needs to come with an ironclad solution to avoid abuse of the law. If transactivists and their supporters would just do this fundamental process in democracy: think of others and not just of your own needs

Which sports do you think should be mixed sex? Rugby? Boxing? Mma or football?

Women need our own teams as we cannot compete against the strength and speed of men once they pass puberty - that is biological fact. We are not built the same. The elite women's national football team in America was beaten by an under 15 boys side 5-2.

My son does judo competitively at age 11. They weight band of course but they also age band competition to under 12's, 12-14, 15-17 and 18+ because the impact of puberty makes it dangerous not to split older kids and younger kids even if they weigh the same. Women could take on pre pubescent boys but that's about it

We only know who the violent sex offenders are after they commit sex offences. So you propose to allow all biological men into female spaces should they want to do so (self id and all that) but once they get caught physically assault a woman they are no longer welcome? Are the assaulted women acceptable collateral damage?

Competitive sports are not like primary school ffs people want to win no matter what it MEANS something to them it's their livelihood

"Percieved" biological advantage? It's actually a real biological advantage men and women are NOT the same

Yes. But it is discrimination to exclude male people from female spaces. Just because it is legitimate doesn’t mean that it isn’t discrimination. Hence why I said it is very important to be clear when posters say ‘trans people shouldn’t be discriminated against. It ends up being a lazily made point because it is a half made throw away point, if you see what I mean.

And the root of that discrimination may be for being male, not for being transgender. However, unless posters clarify this, the discussion goes around in circles and doesn’t progress.

This is what really frustrates me.

We have to consider the law and the impact of the law on everyone in all situations.

All this 'a more inclusive environment' really isn't when you unpick it and consider socio-economic backgrounds. All the phrase is doing is seeking to disenfranchise groups that are less visible and have less political voice in a new way. It's not cool. And it's certainly not progressive.

Saying 'i believe' but not having a practical solution to explicitly spelt out problems is the flaw that Brexiteers made (and I warned would happen) because you need an actual plan to implement otherwise you get a mess and then have to scramble around after fixing problems you've created that you didn't need to make in the first place.

The 'grey areas' point is like ignoring Northern Ireland and throwing a tantrum about it when reality catches up with you that you also have legal responsibilities to ensure the human rights of other people beyond transpeople.

It's a fundamental discharging of responsibility with a shrug saying 'hey not my problem'. That's not inclusive. It's the very definition of selfish. It's throwing others under the bus because you can't think further than the end of your nose and don't understand human rights.

The people with vested interests are even worse imo. They do this thing where they have deliberate Selective Self Protective Beliefs because they have friends or family members who have transitioned. They don't want to consider the long term negative impacts to others or their loved ones because that is potentially too distressing to consider as the future. That's doing their loved one a massive disservice.

Cognitive Dissonance is not a position to be inclusive from. Shouting at others for being bigots does not change this. Especially when they really aren't bigots and understand 'its a bit more complicated than that'

This over simplification to thought terminating cliches is destructive and counter productive.