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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Older generations show resistance to trans rights

1000 replies

Inauthentic · 07/04/2024 22:36

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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RebelliousCow · 09/04/2024 11:00

valensiwalensi · 09/04/2024 10:53

I didnt realise nail salons were womens only spaces. You learn something new every day.
What else have I missed?
Florists?
Ballet studios?

Did you read the piece. I said that salons are not designated single sex spaces, but that they tend to operate as such. This man was there on account of his autogynephilia - which is an erotic fetish - and was getting off on the fact he was in a female space.

I see such men quite frequently where I live and their attire is usually overtly sexualised and they behave and pose in obviously fetishistic ways.

Grammarnut · 09/04/2024 11:00

FFSNorman · 07/04/2024 22:40

They mostly voted Brexit too.

Who voted Brexit and why does it matter? Those over 80 tended to vote Remain whereas the generation below them (40s to 70s) are more EU sceptic, though I am not sure they are also all GC. As it happens I am GC (and so was my late DH) and we both voted for Brexit and are both 'baby boomers'. The EU is very keen on gender woo so being GC and anti-EU (not anti-Europe, I am a European) go together. With age comes wisdom.

borntobequiet · 09/04/2024 11:00

I believe it’s equally not fair for them to compete in mens events when their hormone levels would put them at a disadvantage

There are lots of medications, medical treatments and procedures that detrimentally affect sporting ability. Most people unfortunate enough to undergo these accept this and adjust their activities to accommodate it.

Why should the effects of cross-sex hormones and surgeries be an exception?
Especially when so many claim that gender dysphoria is not an “illness” as such.

nonmerci99 · 09/04/2024 11:02

I’m a millennial and a massive TERF. I have some close millennial friends who are as well, we are just generally afraid to share these views in any kind of open way.

RebelliousCow · 09/04/2024 11:04

valensiwalensi · 09/04/2024 10:53

I didnt realise nail salons were womens only spaces. You learn something new every day.
What else have I missed?
Florists?
Ballet studios?

It wasn't a nail bar - it was beautician. In all my time of visiting such salons I've never, until recently, come across a man getting such treatments. I don't believe that you have either.

If a man came into my granddaughter's ballet class wearing a tutu and make-up, I'd certainly think it was quite odd.

valensiwalensi · 09/04/2024 11:05

RebelliousCow · 09/04/2024 11:04

It wasn't a nail bar - it was beautician. In all my time of visiting such salons I've never, until recently, come across a man getting such treatments. I don't believe that you have either.

If a man came into my granddaughter's ballet class wearing a tutu and make-up, I'd certainly think it was quite odd.

Edited

I'm from London. There's nothing ive not seen.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/04/2024 11:05

Cem82 · 09/04/2024 10:29

I think puberty blockers are grey areas because while I would not agree with anyone whose mind is not fully mature making radical decisions (like I wouldn’t let a young teen get a tattoo even) but in some very rare cases where a person is suicidal and a mental health professional decides on that course I believe it is beyond my area of expertise and I would have to trust the professionals. I simply do not know in that circumstance what the correct course is, I have not got the correct training or education to assess that!

In sports I think transwomen can have an unfair advantage due to their physical size etc but I say it is a grey area because I believe it’s equally not fair for them to compete in mens events when their hormone levels would put them at a disadvantage - maybe there should be a non gendered event everyone can enter alongside the women’s event? Again not an expert.

I think accusing people of being potential rapists or deviants because they were born into the wrong bodies is hateful and can have a horrendous effect on a person’s mental health. Do we think all men are potential rapists too? I can’t imagine the trauma of your brain and hormones telling you that you are one gender but your body being another and having to go through that as a teenager (being a teen is already difficult) only to find when you finally get into the right body that you are attacked, called names and accused of being a deviant. It is hateful. It is an angry mob that hates anyone different, anyone they can’t understand.

Hello @Cem82. Thank you for this reply. You've made a lot of points here which I would love to respond to in turn.

First of all, puberty blockers. What you seem to be saying is not so much that it is a grey area, but that you personally do not have the relevant expertise to be able to judge. I think it is important to point out that nobody really has this expertise. "Gender affirming medicine" truly is the wild west of modern medicine. You might argue that all forms of medicine were once new and experimental, and without such experimentation we would not have made the medical advancements we all benefit from today, and this would be a fair point.

However. Puberty blockers are drugs which target the pituitary gland to interfere with a person's endocrine system. They have a much longer history of use for other purposes. The most extreme example is that they have been used to chemically castrate sex offenders, rendering them unable to sustain an erection. They are sometimes used in the treatment of endometriosis in adult women, and also to delay puberty in cases of precocious puberty, which is where children start to experience the first signs of puberty before the age of 8. In such cases, patients are given the lightest possible dose of these drugs for the shortest possible treatment duration, because they are recognised to cause very severe negative side effects, including for both brain and bone health.

The practice of using them to block normal puberty in adolescents suffering from gender dysphoria is relatively recent and highly controversial. The evidence to support this practice comes largely from a study carried out in the Netherlands in the 1990s, meaning that the patients concerned are still relatively young. If, for example, it turned out that using these drugs for this purpose caused 100% of patients to develop Alzheimer's disease in their early 50s, we would still not know about it because it would not have happened yet. The sample size was quite small and consisted exclusively of young males who had experienced persistent gender dysphoria since early childhood.

This demographic is clearly not the same as the current largest demographic of trans identifying children, namely females with adolescent onset gender dysphoria, e.g. the Keira Bells of this world.

As more and more evidence about the impact of puberty blockers emerges, an increasing number of healthcare systems are deciding that the evidence is too poor and the risks are too great to support their continued use. The UK and France are following in the footsteps of the Scandinavian countries which, once early adopters of puberty blockers, are now clamping down on this practice. The USA, with its for-profit healthcare system and it's "if you can pay for it, you can have it" approach to, well, pretty much everything, is an outlier in this respect.

So no, puberty blockers are not so much a grey area as a massive great big red flashing light saying "danger!"

As an aside, whether or not you would consent to a young teen getting a tattoo is entirely irrelevant because in the UK it is illegal to get a tattoo below the age of 18, regardless of parental consent.

Regarding sports, I think it is even less of a grey area. Of course it is unfair to female athletes if someone who has been through male puberty is allowed to compete in their category. It is astonishing that this even needs to be said. As for trans women who have voluntarily used cross sex hormones to make them appear more feminine and as such are no longer competitive against male athletes, so bloody what? They chose to take the hormones. They still have an unfair advantage over women. The fact that they can no longer win in male categories is really neither here nor there. Whatever next? Should we also allow male athletes who have reduced their lung capacity by smoking 20 cigarettes a day to compete against women? What about men who are overweight? Or just short?

Arguably, the real injustice in transgender participation in sport is not trans women being excluded from female categories, but trans men who have taken testosterone being excluded from all competitive sport, even though they do not have any unfair advantage over men. Funnily enough, no one seems to care about them. I wonder why. (Spoiler: no one cares about them because they're female.)

A non gendered event is a good idea in theory. In fact, I am hugely in favour of it. Not least because male athletes, regardless of gender identity, would win in pretty much all categories, thereby demonstrating why we have sex based sporting categories in the first place. But funnily enough, there doesn't seem to be much demand from trans women athletes for these events. They want to compete in mainstream sport, in the women's categories.

Finally, nobody is accusing trans people of being potential rapists because they are trans. Trans women are potential rapists because they are male, and rape is a crime which can only be committed by a male perpetrator. As such, yes, we do think all male people are potential rapists. I do not believe my husband would ever rape anyone, or my father, or my brother. But women who are unknown to them have no way of knowing this. I would not want the gentlest man in the world, not even my own son if he identified as a trans woman, to be using women's single sex spaces, because as far as the female users of those spaces are concerned, he IS a potential rapist. And statistically, a large minority of the women using those spaces have in fact been raped or sexually assaulted by a man and are likely to find his presence traumatic and terrifying, even if I personally believe that he wouldn't harm a fly.

Nobody is denying that people with gender dysphoria exist, or that it can make their lives incredibly difficult and painful. But we should not be making law and policy which has a negative effect on over half the population, purely for the benefit of one small group. We shouldn't be doing it even if we could guarantee that all the people in that group are both genuine and harmless. And we certainly shouldn't be doing it in a way that allows people who are not genuine and actually incredibly dangerous to take advantage of the situation by claiming to be part of that group. This is really basic safeguarding.

AIstolemylunch · 09/04/2024 11:05

Tallula7 · 09/04/2024 10:58

Why are people bringing Brexit into it. Completely irrelevant to the topic.

Because the third poster on this thread did when agreeing with the nonsense propossd in the OP that all GC people are middle aged and that all millenial and gen Z people support the position that transwomen are women.

"They mostly voted Brexit too"

Tallula7 · 09/04/2024 11:05

nonmerci99 · 09/04/2024 11:02

I’m a millennial and a massive TERF. I have some close millennial friends who are as well, we are just generally afraid to share these views in any kind of open way.

And this is what perpetuates the problem. BE outspoken and put your head above the parapet , we all need to, otherwise this lunacy will continue and will get worse.

RebelliousCow · 09/04/2024 11:07

valensiwalensi · 09/04/2024 11:05

I'm from London. There's nothing ive not seen.

Of course we don't have cross dressers and fetishists in the provinces.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 09/04/2024 11:08

72 , natal female.

I agree that a lot of ‘older people’ are rather less supportive aka credulous in this. That may be because as you live longer, you become more cynical and suspicious of ‘authorities’ and their pronouncements : politicians , scientists , academics , social commentators. ( as for MSM 😂) .

In my life to name only a few:

Chernobyl, ‘ perfectly safe. Inspected , correct procedures, nothing to worry about…
Boeing : doors fall off aeroplanes because held on with tinfoil. Boeing , supported by US investigation: no, must be the fault of some careless maintenance worker …( eventually disproved by victims family)

Sub Prime mortgages : almost everyone in finance ‘ wonderful idea, trading stuff that doesn’t exist’…

Female athletes being fed testosterone: Olympic Committee, ‘ are you being unkind about a woman’ also see: Romanian girls starved and intimidated into gymnastic triumphs.

’We ought to join in the Iraq War because weapons of mass destruction’ oops, there weren’t any and the man who said so is not alive to say ‘ I told you so’.

Thalidomide: terrible ‘side effects’ of a drug prescribed to pregnant women. Big Pharma : nonsense, it’s a coincidence , what do you mean compensation?

You will see that this untrustworthy behaviour is not a Right/ Left issue, or a Government / Socialist / Capitalist issue. I could provide lots more.

Many of us Oldies have developed a healthy cynicism about the latest ‘Good Idea’ and about the assurances that nothing bad can happen, and everyone involved has only the highest moral motivations.

nonmerci99 · 09/04/2024 11:08

Tallula7 · 09/04/2024 11:05

And this is what perpetuates the problem. BE outspoken and put your head above the parapet , we all need to, otherwise this lunacy will continue and will get worse.

I wouldn’t risk losing my job over sharing political views. I’m not financially comfortable enough to put my head above the parapet, and I’m also an immigrant.

What’s curious is that pro-trans views, which are definitely political, can be shared openly with no repercussions in the workplace. No one will talk about how they vote but it’s fine to add pronouns to your signature etc. I hope that this shifts.

Tallula7 · 09/04/2024 11:08

AIstolemylunch · 09/04/2024 11:05

Because the third poster on this thread did when agreeing with the nonsense propossd in the OP that all GC people are middle aged and that all millenial and gen Z people support the position that transwomen are women.

"They mostly voted Brexit too"

I saw that and it was a ridiculous irrelevant comment that shouldn't be entertained. Total red herring.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/04/2024 11:09

Grammarnut · 09/04/2024 11:00

Who voted Brexit and why does it matter? Those over 80 tended to vote Remain whereas the generation below them (40s to 70s) are more EU sceptic, though I am not sure they are also all GC. As it happens I am GC (and so was my late DH) and we both voted for Brexit and are both 'baby boomers'. The EU is very keen on gender woo so being GC and anti-EU (not anti-Europe, I am a European) go together. With age comes wisdom.

Edited

Whereas I completely disagree with your views about the EU but very much agree with your views about gender.

I don't think there is a correlation.

And I believe that whilst the EU is somewhat infected with gender woo at the moment, the tide is already turning, particularly with multiple member states moving to restrict or ban puberty blockers.

Whilst there is no doubt that the people working in the EU institutions are ideologues when it comes to the European project, they are nowhere near as ideologically wedded to gender woo, and much more into facts and data than their north American policy-making counterparts.

valensiwalensi · 09/04/2024 11:09

RebelliousCow · 09/04/2024 11:07

Of course we don't have cross dressers and fetishists in the provinces.

Apparently you don't have men in the beauticians.

MrsSkylerWhite · 09/04/2024 11:09

Nearly 60. Generally supportive of trans people.

Grammarnut · 09/04/2024 11:12

Inauthentic · 07/04/2024 22:36

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

I don't get that Gen Z and Millenials grew up in more inclusive environments. Those who grew up in the 50s, 60s and 70s understood and campaigned for the inclusive environment we now have, and it is that generation that is resistant to genderwoo, understanding biology and that although being gay was condemned as a mental illness, saying being transgender is analogous to being gay (and therefore no more a mental illness than being gay) is stretching a philosophical point to breaking. Being gay is not just a feeling in your head but a physical reaction, whereas being transgender is all about what you feel in your head, with no physical connection whatsoever. The RC has just pointed out that the soul is represented through the body, thus thinking you have an identity (a soul?) that differs from your bodily expression is impossible, Genderwoo is talking personality here and an adherence to gender stereotypes which do not match the multitude of ways we express ourselves - it is a denial the body expressing the soul. Why Gen Z and Millenials think this is a logical position, who knows, but they seem less knowledgeable and well-read than previous generations.

AIstolemylunch · 09/04/2024 11:13

valensiwalensi · 09/04/2024 11:05

I'm from London. There's nothing ive not seen.

I'm from London and when an unaccompanied older man got in the pool at the same time as a young children's swimming class and then tried to enter the changing rooms with them afterwards, the lifeguards threw him out.

Being from a big city and seeing all sorts in clubs amongst consenting adults doesnt make it acceptable to transgress peoples privacy and boundaries and perve on little kids.

Snowypeaks · 09/04/2024 11:14

SabrinaThwaite · 09/04/2024 10:59

In sports I think transwomen can have an unfair advantage due to their physical size etc but I say it is a grey area because I believe it’s equally not fair for them to compete in mens events when their hormone levels would put them at a disadvantage - maybe there should be a non gendered event everyone can enter alongside the women’s event? Again not an expert.

Decisions have consequences. If deciding to make physical modifications to your body makes you uncompetitive in the male / open categories then tough. Elite women have to make these decisions too - how many delay pregnancy to ensure that they remain competitive during their peak years?

And whilst having specific categories for trans people could be a solution, they don’t want this. For ‘reasons’. World Swimming tried introducing a trans category and received zero entries.

And you also get the laughable situation where NB categories are having to be split into male NB and female NB for obvious reasons.

Just to add to this - it's not the case that taking cross-sex hormones and androgen blockers necessarily put men at a disadvantage against other men. If they train, they don't lose muscle mass. They can even improve.

Tallula7 · 09/04/2024 11:14

nonmerci99 · 09/04/2024 11:08

I wouldn’t risk losing my job over sharing political views. I’m not financially comfortable enough to put my head above the parapet, and I’m also an immigrant.

What’s curious is that pro-trans views, which are definitely political, can be shared openly with no repercussions in the workplace. No one will talk about how they vote but it’s fine to add pronouns to your signature etc. I hope that this shifts.

This very rational fear that you have about potential repercussions for expressing your views is cancel culture in a nutshell. It is the height of misogyny when men pretending to be women advocate for their own wishes to the point that real women can't speak about matters that affect them directly. What a sad age we live in.

RebelliousCow · 09/04/2024 11:16

valensiwalensi · 09/04/2024 11:09

Apparently you don't have men in the beauticians.

I don't believe that you do, either.

I used to live in London myself...and men tend to be the same wherever they live.

SabrinaThwaite · 09/04/2024 11:16

Arguably, the real injustice in transgender participation in sport is not trans women being excluded from female categories, but trans men who have taken testosterone being excluded from all competitive sport, even though they do not have any unfair advantage over men. Funnily enough, no one seems to care about them. I wonder why. (Spoiler: no one cares about them because they're female.)

TM can get a Therapeutic Use Exemption for taking testosterone to allow them to compete in elite sport in the male / open category.

The issue is that, not having had the benefit of a male puberty, they are usually uncompetitive. There are rare exceptions, Chris Mosier for instance was moderately successful.

nonmerci99 · 09/04/2024 11:18

Tallula7 · 09/04/2024 11:14

This very rational fear that you have about potential repercussions for expressing your views is cancel culture in a nutshell. It is the height of misogyny when men pretending to be women advocate for their own wishes to the point that real women can't speak about matters that affect them directly. What a sad age we live in.

I completely agree. I have spoken about my beliefs with colleagues outside of work in the past (many years ago now, pre-Kathleen Stock so when it felt much more illicit!), and that led to my being ostracised by most of those colleagues.

I am grateful so many powerful women are speaking truth to power and hope that in time sharing gender critical beliefs isn’t equated with hatred. I don’t hate trans people, I just don’t believe men can become women (and vice versa). It should be non controversial to say this.

valensiwalensi · 09/04/2024 11:20

AIstolemylunch · 09/04/2024 11:13

I'm from London and when an unaccompanied older man got in the pool at the same time as a young children's swimming class and then tried to enter the changing rooms with them afterwards, the lifeguards threw him out.

Being from a big city and seeing all sorts in clubs amongst consenting adults doesnt make it acceptable to transgress peoples privacy and boundaries and perve on little kids.

Good.

valensiwalensi · 09/04/2024 11:21

RebelliousCow · 09/04/2024 11:16

I don't believe that you do, either.

I used to live in London myself...and men tend to be the same wherever they live.

I absolutely do.

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