They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

Bonus hole?

Grim.

I’ve got a feeling it’s women who “identify as” gay men who came up with that gem - the gist being that they have the same “holes” as “other” gay men, plus an extra bonus one, yay!

So it’s steeped in homophobia as well as internalised misogyny.

If I’m right, that is.

I think you are right @RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

Ah I see.

So “bonus hole” is used by trans “men” ie women? Do trans “women” (ie men) refer to their vagina then?

If that’s the case, then the world has turned upside down. A real vagina isn’t called a vagina, but a post-surgery fleshy nothingness is called a vagina?

Certainly can - what a filthy expression that is..

I have heard vaginas being referred to as "front holes" as well.

Another nasty expression.

If I remember correctly, the front hole/vagina switch came from a USA leaflet which said front holes are what women have, and vaginas are what trans women have. It was on a list of 'definitions'.

About 5 years ago. I will have a copy of it on my old hard drive somewhere. It was posted here at the time.

And not even accurate, considering the vagina is neither positioned at the front nor the frontmost hole.

(At least the old-fashioned type of vagina. I believe surgically created approximations may be more accurately labelled as such, because of the way the male pelvis is positioned)

Wow.

We all know that men that identify as women don't have vaginas. Why did people start enabling this factually incorrect rubbish. Was it to 'be kind' to men with AGP or because women are used to or conditioned to put others first?

Both - women are conditioned to #bekind from an early age. Keep quiet and don’t speak up because we all know what happens to women and girls who do. The power of the male - physically, mentally, socially, professionally, economically.

I see the discussion has moved on, but I’ve noticed a new trend for people who are in all outward appearances completely gender conforming claiming that their pronouns are “biologically correct/they”. Is this an attempt to be an ally? Or do they think they are being helpful to people who might otherwise tie themselves up in knots worrying about whether they’ve got it wrong? Or are they trying to show that they don’t care about gender so much that they don’t mind if people think they’re trans?

I have come across this too and my take is "I'm such a special man/woman that I also think of myself as non-binary but not SO non-binary that I'm going to make a fuss, but I still think gender identity is more important than sex".

I just avoid them and their potential lawsuit as much as humanely possible. If I absolute MUST have to interact with them/address them, I use their name only, and never their pronoun.

If I remember correctly, the front hole/vagina switch came from a USA leaflet which said front holes are what women have, and vaginas are what trans women have. It was on a list of 'definitions'.

God almighty!

that's adding insult to injury isn't it?

We're not even allowed the body parts they try to reduce us to, now.

He/she doesn’t define the entire person, just alludes to them in English which has different pronouns for males and females. Indeed someone may well now come along and say that ‘they/them’ defines them, so they want to be referred to as something else.

I even call the cats ‘he/she’ as we have one of each. He/she doesn’t define them at all as it just differentiates which one we are speaking about. One is a very hairy, and the other a bit ‘challenged’. We use Matty and Batty (not their real names) when we want to boil it down. They can’t understand us (we hope!).

There you go, from the HRC...2018.

Oh good grief. You’d think that men who want to identify as women would do their anatomy homework.

I think I preferred this thread when it was stuck on Sex and Gender 101.

Hi. I am a longtime trans woman. I wanted to correct some myths and incorrect assumptions that I see here. I would like to foster understanding of that which is foreign and somewhat "exotic," if you don't know any trans women (that you're aware of) so that all sides of the debate can understand each other better.

1. I have a vagina, and it's not necrotising or a "post-surgery nothingness." My husband has no complaints!

2. I'm a normal, productive member of society. I'm a married mother of two and I work as a Labour & Delivery nurse, supporting other women in their journeys through early motherhood. I'm grateful for the NHS's inclusive language, because I have many trans men delivering who prefer the terms "birthing parent" and "chestfeeding," which are now used almost exclusively where I work. Everybody feels included and comfortable. It's a privilege to serve at births, no matter the gender of the birthing parent. Everyone deserves care at this vulnerable time.

3. I use the women's toilets and changing rooms, and no one bats an eyelid. No one ever works out that I was originally biological male unless I tell them.

4. I am no threat to anyone. I do not hurt biological women (or anyone else for that matter) and I use the toilets for one reason: to use the toilets.

5. I do have periods. I don't bleed, but I get monthly symptoms of PMT due to the hormones I take.

I am a real, beautiful, proud woman.

Ask me anything.

1. Women need single sex spaces.
2. There are no explanations you can give that will change the need of female people for single sex spaces.
3. You might need to switch from 'broadcast' to 'listen' mode and try listening to women instead of expecting that they're stupid and you can reason them into not needing single sex spaces.

There are threads and threads on this, it is very easy to find and listen to women's voices if you want to, and if you care about women's needs and issues as opposed to just wanting to shut them up and make them do what serves your interests.

Incidentally I'm neither beautiful, nor proud, nor anything else exciting, just a female stuck in a body with a reality that isn't going to go away, who is really, really tired of this.

I use their name.

If its absolutely essential to use they, I use the plural pronoun with a singular verb - "They is going to leave work at five today" It sounds ridiculous and draws attention to the stupidity of the whole thing.

You've got to love any bullet point list where item 1 is an unsolicited description of the author's genitals.

You are about to get flamed on this thread. So just popping up to give a friendly wave from a cis woman.

I think it's a bizarre interjection into this discussion, unwanted and unnecessary. It's designed to push buttons and me-rail. No thanks!

@pootlefump I hope that you're finding your way through this and managing to hold your line without causing any problems for you as a result.