They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

@Belichtofalicht you are responsible for your own posts, no one else is going to remind you what you wrote at your demand. And, fwiw, I think that post was one of the ones that was deleted.

Either that or I have a full-time job in addition to being a live-in carer for an immediate relative and don’t have time or inclination to write an academic paper for the purpose of banging my head against a brick wall.

You have an awful lot of time to dedicate to posting a lot of nonsense though. Simple explanations to your claims would be a start, and answers to reasonable points put to you. I won't hold my breath.

I'm not asking for academic papers, just for the application of logic and common-sense.

That Vox article by the way, starts off talking about the US, US employment law and US equality laws. It's not something that women on a UK site are going to know about or be able to comment on without lots of background reading.

It then segues into a sort of an attempt at a history of radical feminism, whilst shifting across the Atlantic to land in the UK. If quotes the often debunked Stonewall "research" about trans suicide stats. It makes several unsubstantiated claims about the background of radical feminism in the Uk. It quotes Shon Faye, who has some very questionable views about women and girls. I could go on, but I don't have time. I'll come back to it later if the thread is not full.

Do you live in the US @Belichtofalicht ? I know you said you live abroad and your links have been overwhelmingly US based.

Yes I would say that because I see the harms your ideology is causing to women. I've asked you repeatedly to square the circle regarding how you can campaign for moves which have led to women being attacked and not consider yourself anti women. Why not answer. Your post may not be able to be shown because you have had to many deleted due to your attacks on others. You did make a 'joke' in the context of a serious discussion about women being attacked though which is in fairly poor taste at best IMHO.

Quick replies.

I was responding to the fact she said she's leaving the thread. No need to come at me!

We don't exclude trans people. We exclude males. Because they're not women. Your hostile attacks don't bother me becausebI know that mine is not a position of hate but gender ideology is. I still believe you to be highly anti women whether you are conscious of that or not. I can't see any other reason for promoting removal of boundaries required to increase women's safety.

@Ereshkigalangcleg then suggested it might be true because some of my replies have been deleted and I don’t remember every one of my “900” posts.

I'm familiar with Alison and trust what she says. I didn't see the specific post she's referring to but you have had several abusive posts deleted.

But I’m the one who’s anti-woman?

Yes, that's right.

I absolutely did not. I teased Alison Donuts about loving checklists because she talked about them so much, to lighten things up, and she responded by lying that I wrote men raping women in jai is funny. That is a vile accusation.

The fact that a totally harmless joke about someone loving their checklists is being twisted into me not taking violence against women seriously proves my point that everything I say will be twisted. Do you seriously wonder why I won’t engage any more, after not one, but two people (her and you) twisted my harmless joke like that?

But I’M anti-woman?

It wasn’t ‘teasing’ @Belichtofalicht - you were exceptionally rude to Alison who simply asked how you distinguish the ‘good’ men who identify as women (from the 1 in 585 who are convicted sex offenders in England and Wales (compared to 1 in every 2500-3000 men)) - something you have not been able to do.

You may have missed my previous post - are you in the US?

The common ground looks fairly common to me. Most here seem to be agreed that no one should experience abuse, workplace discrimination, or harrassment because of their gender presentation. All should have the right to present as they feel most comfortable. Also, given that regressive gender stereotypes are harmful to all, this could actually be seen as a good thing.

Sometimes sex does matter: this also isn't a controversial point in this discussion. Prisons and sports are cited as two examples which could result in serious harm via close proximity of XY men to XX women who have smaller bodies, muscle and skeletel mass. No arguments here either. (The trans lobby, incidentally, would take gratuitous exception to this position. You'd be ousted from your allyhood and relegated to the status of 'T'-slur before you can blink an eye).

The main bone of contention, then, seems to be changing facilities and toilets. With that example, surely third spaces are an obvious solution (or, in small cafes for example with limited space, one toilet cubicle for all with an integral wash basin and flush, fully lockable door without gaps). There's no reason why third-spaces should 'out' a trans person who doesn't want to be outed. As mother of a son too old for the ladies but too young to be let free in the gents by himself, I'd willingly use them and actively welcome them when I have him with me.

Names I will use as requested. Pronouns, if I can avoid using them at all, I'll dodge; mainly by using the passive voice rather than a constant repetition of someone's first name to make a point. I can hardly be expected to remember everyone's pronouns in the environment in which I work (with many trans and non-binary people). Avoid using them, and no one need be inadvertently offended.

Trans women and women are distinct groups with distinct biologies and sometimes their needs are distinct. In which case surely the 'kind' option is to consider the needs of both as best protects their interests?

Is any of this in any way controversial? To me, most of this seems the general position on these boards and a clear summary of these arguments, but I'm willing to be corrected if mistaken.

Jesus Christ this is like punching clay 😂😂😂

As always, huge respect to the posters on here that have shown incredible levels of patience and despite being incredibly frustrated, have not resorted to posts that will get deleted.

That’s a very fair summary - I agree with your points @SerafinasGoose

Joking/teasing someone you are accusing of being a bigot is somewhat surprising and IMHO badly judged. There's so many deleted posts of yours, we can't verify what you said, sadly. I get that you are saying you don't think women being raped is funny and thank goodness. I've twisted nothing and I don't believe your joke was harmless. It came across as rude, mocking and antagonistic - to me anyway. That might be because of the generally (IMHO) hostile nature of your replies. Yes I think you're anti-woman though yet again, I will say that if you have a way to square the circle with the fact that you are inviting a group of males with male pattern offending and often fully functioning male genitalia into the womens (and there is evidence that on some occasions when that's happened, women have been assaulted) but somehow you don't consider that anti women, I'm all ears.

@SerafinasGoose what I really meant was that I'm not hopeful that the majority of posters on here and @Belichtofalicht will reach an agreement.

Obviously it's a discussion board so everyone doesn't have to completely agree (what would be the point?!) but the tone of debate is getting quite shrill. (I don't mean you, your post is measured.)

Anyway, as you indicate, I bet you and I might agree on quite a lot in real life. Not everything, but I hope we could enjoy a civil exchange of views.

That said, these threads do feel quite shouty for those of us who are less of a TERFy bent. So I'm going to say thank you all for having me and ta-ra for now.

Do you understand what the issues are with @Belichtofalichts posts? It doesn't really sound like it.

You do realise that no male will ever have a “working vagina”?

Or even a "non-working vagina"

They might have an inverted penis or a length of bowel, but all that is is an inverted penis or a length of bowel - it's not a vagina.

It's not self-lubricating, or self-cleaning. It can't accommodate itself to embrace a penis, or allow an infant to be born.

It's just a strip of random raw flesh - often necrotising or foul-smelling. It requires manual dilation on pretty much a daily basis to prevent it from closing up (because it is a wound, and the instinct of wounded flesh is to try to heal). If it closes up that's permanent.

Not a vagina at all.

I "transitioned" from short to tall, but it took me the first 15 years of my life.

I’m trying really really hard to transition from my mid 50s to my mid 30s but I’m obviously doing something wrong

That said, these threads do feel quite shouty for those of us who are less of a TERFy bent. So I'm going to say thank you all for having me and ta-ra for now.

Thanks for your stellar contribution.

Not a vagina, which is why they call it a bonus hole. The trans hatred and envy of women can be summed up in that one disgusting term.