They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

I would just call them by their name constantly.

Oh Bob? Bob has gone to get the post

Bob is on Bob’s lunch break

Bob says you’ll get that email when Bob has met with the supplier. I’ll ask Bob to chase it up.

I would actually do it so earnestly and get on everyone’s fucking nerves with it. Even Bob’s.

Subversion by stealth.

Love this

Brock Colyar on Pronouns, Identifying as Nonbinary

"These days, it feels as if an identity that, not long ago, felt unique to me in most rooms I entered has gone mass. Yes, part of what I’m personally upset about is the fact that this thing I loved isn’t so alt anymore. But more than that, it feels as if pronoun culture has contributed to nonbinary becoming just the third gender after male and female, more static and concrete than its original fluid intentions. The same nonbinary person who complained about nonbinary stereotypes lamented to me, “I don’t want to be a homogeneous normcore mashing of the two genders.” Ben hoped, “If man or woman can mean so many things, then so can nonbinary.” We all became nonbinary to escape gendered expectations, and now we’re stuck again. I can’t help but think that the walking-on-eggshells battle for pronouns is turning my gender into a human-resources-approved corporate product, more neutered than neutral, and, maybe above all else, profoundly unromantic. Next time, just call me by my name."

https://www.thecut.com/article/brock-colyar-pronouns-nonbinary-essay.html?

Can be found in usual archiving places.

I've experienced exactly this, They was complaining about being disrespected and the HR lady was telling us all how this wouldn't do while referring to the woman as She. My other colleague and I were deliberately avoiding pronouns and just using "Arrow" or whatever her made up name was.

Good point- the discrepancy between visual information and known but abstract information reminds me of that test/game where you have to read a coloured word but say what's spelt, not how it's coloured (or vice versa).

Good point- the discrepancy between visual information and known but abstract information reminds me of that test/game where you have to read a coloured word but say what's spelt, not how it's coloured (or vice versa).

Stroop effect? Interactive test online for anyone who's not done it.

https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/java/ready.html

Doesn't it depend on context though? Say you go into a cafe and find a phone left on the seat/dropped under the chair. You say, 'someone had lost their phone '.
In this instance you don't use sex specific pronouns because you don't know.

This?

Personally I like to really go for it and use truly singular they:

’They is running late’

or use They/Them like it’s all one word:

’They/Them is running late’

Can anyone explain why when they is used for an individual who wants to be referred to that way, it’s not ‘they is …. ‘ ‘they has…’ etc?

Use their name. Avoids being coerced into using nonsense pronouns.

Calling you 'she' also does not define who you are. I agree that it's important to let people be themselves but it's also important to recognise that knowing what sex someone is, does not define them.

@TathingScinsel They are running late, all of them.

What do ya reckon?

If someone wanted me to address them as a goat I would just call them by their name I kid you not

Or 'the person who wants to attention seek' either or

I’m not understanding all the hate against using someone’s preferred pronouns. If it makes them happy to be called “they,” what’s the big deal?

Yeah, I don’t understand the whole thing either. I get that you can be born with the body of one sex and the brain of the other, and so feel as if you’re in the wrong body, but that’s still operating within the two-sex model. It’s the non-binary stuff that I don’t believe in. There are only two sexes - but you can still want to be the other one.

But even if we don’t understand that they want to be they, it doesn’t cost anything to do it. Maybe they just don’t want to be tied down to the expectations of one gender, which I can understand.

I work in a university so we have a few they/them students. I largely remember but sometimes slip up just because they look like their sex so it's hard not to. I just think "well, I'm doing my best". And largely they're not there to hear anyway.

@Belichtofalicht you said
I get that you can be born with the body of one sex and the brain of the other, and so feel as if you’re in the wrong body
No one is saying this nowadays, not even trans identifying people, it's so 2015. Also no one is born with the wrong sexed brain.

I know a they/them in a regular hobby group where we often have to refer to other group members as part of the activity. If anyone says he/his/him (which happens regularly) they are admonished by him straight away. It's very tiresome. I try to either talk to him directly or just say his name. Very tricky to line manage though... Sorry that sounds tough. Also I've never met a non binary person who didn't have a load of personal hang ups and mental health issues so good luck.

I use their name. I refuse to say they/them.

I have as little to do with them as possible and use email contact for the most part. Saves any errors being taken to HR (yes, they are that kind of person).

I also refuse to put pronouns on emails etc.

Sorry that sounds tough. Also I've never met a non binary person who didn't have a load of personal hang ups and mental health issues so good luck.

This is my experience too. Everyone has to constantly tip toe round the person for many reasons, pronouns are just the tip of the iceberg.

@Soontobe60 I'm XX I prefer they/them not from a trans point of view but because being XX doesn't define who I am. OP I would just use they/them for everyone. I can't remember the last time I used she/he in conversation it feels so old fashioned.

being XX doesn't define who I am either - although it is a thing about me. Which pronouns someone uses for me also doesn't define who I am, nor does my name, or the length of my hair, or anything else.

What the fuck does 'define' mean anyway, and why does ignoring my sex for awkward, sometimes confusing grammar choices stop that definition? How about recognising us (XX or XY) as the multi-faceted beings, each with our own inner lives rather than trying to pretend that using 'they' means that you don't know what sex someone is.

They can use the sex based pronouns you prefer, when referring to you, thus respecting your choice of pronouns for yourself.

You don’t get to choose their pronouns, they don’t get to choose yours. HTH.

If there are a group of they/them and you refer to these people as such, is that incorrect? Or do we further mangle the language for a group of people with an agenda sorry, gender identity, and address the group as theys or thems?

And people can have a problem with compelled speech. No one enjoys being expected to lie or mangle language and understanding.

Not only does it make it hard to know who you are referring too, but in many situations it’s actually important to know the sex of people. I was listening to someone using the chosen names and pronouns of TW yesterday and it made it really hard to follow what she was saying, as what they were talking about relied are people being corrrectly sexed.

Because we’ve been taught and spent our whole lives calling men ‘he’ and woman ‘she’.

We have not agreed to, as the PP put it, this mangling of language that is counter intuitive and hard to follow.

We also think the concept of non-binary is unhelpful as it is still all part of gender ideology, which is showing itself to be harmful to women and children.

(With apologies for using the royal ‘we’ here)

Because you are forcing people to lie to you. No one sees these people as anything other than the sex they are.
Because you are forcing people to make the effort to remember to lie every time they refer to you.
People are absolutely entitled to their own view of themselves. You are absolutely not entitled to force other people to share your view of yourself.