Judith Butler describes the October 7 attacks by Hamas as "armed resistance"

[DerekFaker]

Just that really. One of the pioneers of gender identity bullshit sees nothing wrong with what Hamas did. Can't say I'm too surprised.

https://twitter.com/josephhirsch5/status/1764784098822750420?t=exEWstv0huUMaPvoUe_eGg&s=19

There are also reports ( with visual evidence) of Egyptian lorries carrying in aid having been attacked with stones and other missiles, and drivers being injured. The drivers saying they have no intention of going back. Also reports of Hamas firing into the crowds as they ( Hamas) make off with supplies.

@RebelliousCow have seen some new footage this morning on Instagram of trucks being hijacked by Hamas.

Yes, this is very often overlooked by much media and it is sickening.

You saw a thread about sexual violence against women and wanted to get it stopped?

It is TRA tactics all over again. Stop reasonable discussion and create diversions and scream "Genocide!" as loudly as possible. People who are truly on the Right Side of history need not do this.

What I don’t get about anti Zionist’s like @AlphariusOmegron is how can you say you’re not anti- Semitic when you literally don’t want the only Jewish state in the world to exist? Israel became a state almost 76 years ago probably long before you were even born, how can you oppose when it already exists? What is the point in that? If Israel was a Muslim state would anti- Zionists oppose its existence?

What do you think would happen if Israel was dismantled as a Jewish state and became part of the Palestinian Territories? Territories that didn’t even exist when Israel was created.

How do you think that will go down for the Jewish population?

What this thread shows is that people can take any facts and then present them to suit a position they already have.

if the original Zionists like Herzl & so on could have foreseen the peace & prosperity in which the majority of the world's Jewish population would live (in the US, UK, France, & so on) would be living circa 2024, I'm sure they'd have conceded that the moral case for taking a slice of the middle east by conquest was sketchy at best.

the rocket attacks, the 100% military conscription rates, the endless breakouts of violence... is that supposed to go on forever? because it seems like the only (largely unspoken) plan for putting an end to it involves displacing a number of Palestinians easily greater than the number of Jews who've benefited from emigrating to Israel, to on average be far less safe and less prosperous than they would be in the US or Western Europe... does having a government that's willing to kill tens of thousands in your name somehow compensate for that?

if the original Zionists like Herzl & so on could have foreseen the peace & prosperity in which the majority of the world's Jewish population would live (in the US, UK, France, & so on) would be living circa 2024, I'm sure they'd have conceded that the moral case for taking a slice of the middle east by conquest was sketchy at best.

How could they have foreseen that in 1948@puffyisgood?

Was Israel taken by conquest? I didn’t know the Jews started and won a war against Britain. Have you got any links so I can read up about it? Must have missed that.

yes, taken by force. not in one job lot by a single large army like Russia/Ukraine, but by smaller groups, block by block, field by field. it's still going on today, a pitch-perfect textbook example of the settler-colonial model. the individuals doing it at least have the good grace to call themselves 'settlers '.

I don't know if you haven't noticed or if you just don't care but rates of anti-Semitism are going up. Again.

Anti-Semitism has been around for thousands of years. It didn't just go away after World War 2.

I'm sorry but the fact that medieval anti-semitism existed, was still widespread in mid 20th century Western Europe, and still exists in pockets today, does not prove that anything said about Israel today is a derivative of it. How many of the Muslim youth on the London Palestine marches grew up Dickens/Shakespeare junkies, weaned on tales of Fagin & Shylock? And the old AS stereotypes about Jews controlling the world's money markets etc are demonstrably false - look at this list of the world's biggest banks, how many were founded by, are owned by, or run by Jews? None at all. They're all WASP-ish or Asian. The modern fuss about Israel is all about Israel. Old school anti-semitism is easily more prevalent amongst MAGA types who actually, to the extent that they've heard of it, think Israel is rather wonderful.

www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/122315/worlds-top-10-banks-jpm-wfc.asp

if the original Zionists like Herzl & so on could have foreseen the peace & prosperity in which the majority of the world's Jewish population would live (in the US, UK, France, & so on) would be living circa 2024, I'm sure they'd have conceded that the moral case for taking a slice of the middle east by conquest was sketchy at best.
So, how's it working out for the Jews in Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, etc?

Jews were persecuted in those countries over the centuries - it had nothing to do with blaming local Jews for Zionism, though that came later. Jews were either thrown out or forced out of countries where they had a history and a presence going back millennia.

I'm sorry but the fact that medieval anti-semitism existed, was still widespread in mid 20th century Western Europe, and still exists in pockets today, does notprove that anything said about Israel today is a derivative of it. How many of the Muslim youth on the London Palestine marches grew up Dickens/Shakespeare junkies, weaned on tales of Fagin & Shylock?
Some parts of Islam are very, very antisemitic.

I think your historical perspective could do with some work TBH.

https://www.instagram.com/stories/elicalebon/3318671131061080007?utmsource=iggstoryitemmshare&igsh=MTQycjlpemZsYXFveA==

@EdithStourton

Some parts of Islam are very, very antisemitic.

Ain't that the truth...

Not sure how any of that contradicts what I said.

There is nothing medieval about antisemitism. The very modern posters on this thread are so unaware of the hysteria that drives them, the desperate wish to believe jews are uniquely evil baby killers and well poisoners. If I were a jew, I wouldn't be terribly confident of living in the west and Israel is a necessary refuge, the only one in the world. I would be dead scared of the Puffyisgoods and the mobs on the streets every week. Just look at the obsessiveness on this thread.

Posts I have reported on this very website in the last few months include ‘Jews are thieves’ ‘Jews are rich’. Credit to MNHQ for removing them immediately.
They wouldn’t be out of place in the 1930s and indeed medieval England but this was Palestine supporters.

I think it is really important people are allowed to criticise what Israel is doing but honestly you are ignoring the dark underbelly that is using humanitarian concern as a cloak.

I am removing the post as it was meant for another thread.

Everything is easy in hindsight. You seem to be advocating for the annihilation of Israel?

The Holocaust put paid to the idea that anti semitism and jew hatred was a thing of the past - and we still see it continually bubbling both above and under the surface in mosques and in Left wing rhetoric today.

The land did not belong to the tribes that lived there pre 1948; It was part of the Ottoman Empire. The semi nomadic peasants who eked out a living had to pay land taxes to the Ottomans. The wealthier arabs lived in the cities of Beirut, Damascus and Aleppo - the region was seen as a backwater - with a large area of infertile land ( the Negev desert).

There are not 100% conscription rates. But even if there was, so what - lots of countries implement national conscription (or service) including Switzerland, Denamrk, Turkey to name a few; and in fact the EU has recently floated the idea of bringing back conscrption to everywhere in Europe in the face of a growing likelihood of war with Russia.

The plan was always a two state solution - but that was rejected on numerous occasions, and until the leaders of 'the Palestinians' accept the existence of Israel and stop with the fantastical idea of " from the River to the Sea" there can be no peace. It would not involve displacing anyone other than the current Israeli settlers on the West Bank.

Not quite! I was surrounded by Left wing activists in the 1980's ( I lived on peace camps, in squats, did all of the marches and protests...) and being anti Israel was a rite of passage; an article of faith. You were suposed to wear a shemag and boycott Israeli produce, and be a 'Friend of Palestine'. No further questions asked. No research. Just absorbing mantras and ideological positions about 'capitalism' and 'imperialism' and the 'Rothschilds'.

Nobody could be a 'Friend of Israel' - in fact the 'Friends of Israel' was formed in response to the continual anti zionist rhetoric and sentiment. Personally, I was always a bit bemused by this necessary antipathy in left wing circles. I didn't buy it then and I am not buying it now. What I, for one, have attempted to do is to provide some kind of redress to thhis relentless negativity and hatred - complete with falsehoods, misinformation, and ignorance.

Much of the land in the early days was purchased from Ottoman landlords.

Israel now exists as a functioning and productive nation, just like any number of other relatively recently formed nation states ( some of which are much more recent). People need to accept this and move forward, instead of nurturing false hopes of 'return' and further perpetuating the radicalised and hateful refugee identity.

Settlers have moved onto the West Bank due to the continued absence of a Palestinian state ( which has been rejected on numerous occasions). There were no settlers on the West Bank prior to 1967 - and yet in all that time no agreement was found to create a Palestinian state.

The creation of a Palestinian identity has been a political project - nurtured as much by left wing activists in Europe and the west,as by baathist Arabs who worked in conjunction with them. This region has always been at the centre of competing powers and empires - and it remains so.

Don't over-look the malign influence of Russia in the region, and of Iran - it is not just 'the West' ( Ie America). Stalinists began to nurture antipathy to Israel because it had the audacity to form relationships with american Jewry. And people like Jeremy Corbyn and all of the other Left wing radicals come from that tradition. Stalinist flags are often a feature of Left wing rallies.

@mirax
If I were a jew, I wouldn't be terribly confident of living in the west and Israel is a necessary refuge, the only one in the world.
Jewish friends of mine have recently said to me that they thought the west had largely got past antisemitism but look at what is happening now....

Britain looks less safe for Jews now than it has ever done in my lifetime. It's appalling that synagogues require security guards. They didn't in the 80s, but they have done for the last 15-ish years.

Israel, slap in the middle of any number of Muslim majority states, the site of a in incredibly recent, war crimes-laden massacre, entirely consistent with its location in the perpetually wartorn middle east, as a "necessary refuge" from some pro-Palestine marches in Western Europe? Seems legit.

Israel now exists as a functioning and productive nation

I think this is a problem for a a certain type of person @RebelliousCow While 'the Jews' were plucky underdogs they had a degree of support. There was certainly some among Western 'progressives' when they were seen as 'fighting the British'. Now not so much. I think they prefer their minorities to be victims in need of white saviours.