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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Judith Butler describes the October 7 attacks by Hamas as "armed resistance"

218 replies

DerekFaker · 06/03/2024 09:03

Just that really. One of the pioneers of gender identity bullshit sees nothing wrong with what Hamas did. Can't say I'm too surprised.

https://twitter.com/josephhirsch5/status/1764784098822750420?t=exEWstv0huUMaPvoUe_eGg&s=19

https://twitter.com/josephhirsch5/status/1764784098822750420?s=19&t=exEWstv0huUMaPvoUe_eGg

OP posts:
puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 14:25

mirax · 06/03/2024 14:12

  1. A bullshit timescale was produced. There majority of Israel's population are indigeous to the area jews who were dispalce after the creation of Israel - ie Mizrahi jews.
  2. You are esssentially claiming that successful colonisations such as your colonisations need not be challenged. God forbid european hypocrisy is ever pointed out.
  3. The conditions in occupied territories need a political solution. There is more recalcitrance on one side because of maximalist demands supported by western cretins and an ummah that is delusional (that magic story book again).
But we are discussing ONLY Judith Butler and rape of women and children : why is it so difficult for you to condemn just her comments and the rapists? Why "contextualise" rape?

your 1. [majority Mizrahi] may be true but it feels counter-intuitive to me... if it were true why do all Israeli prime ministers without exception and the majority of Israelis in influential positions always seem to have been 1st-3rd generation Russian or similar? Israel's own official stats show that immigration from the former USSR dwarfs all origins... can it be that the kids of those immigrants somehow identify as not being European? this is a sincere question. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-immigration-to-israel-by-country-of-origin

your 2. I didn't say that.

your 3. I absolutely didn't say that. these are war crimes.

Total Immigration to Israel by Country of Origin

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-immigration-to-israel-by-country-of-origin

RebelliousCow · 06/03/2024 14:26

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 13:58

Hardly comparable.

(1) As pointed out by another poster, the timescales are so different as to make those totally different kettles of fish; but
(2) There's a practical reason now why indigenous Australians & Americans won't ever be able to get [from their perspective] all that much justice via the ballot box, namely that there are too few of them/they're a tiny minority, for reasons that from their perspective range from bad [European immigration] to ruinously bad [massacres & disease]. But across Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza collectively, all places where Israel exerts a very high level of control, there's a Muslim majority population, which is prevented from getting justice at the ballot box by something that looks an awful lot like apartheid, which doesn't really wash in 2024.

Israel does not operate apartheid. All citizens, of which 20% are Israeli muslims, have the vote, and can be found in all walks of life.

If you are talking about Gaza and the West Bank...they are not part of Israel. They are lands set aside for a two state solution - the solution which has been rejected by the arabs on multiple occasions over the decades.

Which other country in the world gives non ctizens the right to vote?

If you had visted south Africa in the 1970s, as I did, you would know what apartheid actually looks like in practice and what it means. Words have meaning.

ALLthecheeses · 06/03/2024 14:28

Chrysanthemum5 · 06/03/2024 10:38

People have a limit but that doesn't mean they get to rape and murder women and children

Did Judith Bulter say rape and the murder of women and children are acceptable? I can’t listen to the clip at the moment.

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 14:31

RebelliousCow · 06/03/2024 14:26

Israel does not operate apartheid. All citizens, of which 20% are Israeli muslims, have the vote, and can be found in all walks of life.

If you are talking about Gaza and the West Bank...they are not part of Israel. They are lands set aside for a two state solution - the solution which has been rejected by the arabs on multiple occasions over the decades.

Which other country in the world gives non ctizens the right to vote?

If you had visted south Africa in the 1970s, as I did, you would know what apartheid actually looks like in practice and what it means. Words have meaning.

I did not say that Gaza and the West Bank were "part of Israel". I said that "Israel exerts a very high level of control" there. Do you disagree with this?

qunari · 06/03/2024 14:34

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 14:22

c'mon, look up 'war crimes', geneva convention, hague law, whilst some items on the standard lists may be controversial most are not.

Doesn't really answer my question.

What exactly do you think its okay for Palestinians to do with Israelis?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 06/03/2024 14:34

maudelovesharold · 06/03/2024 14:14

Rape is not resistance. Murdering children is not resistance.

You’re right. Trouble is, when the same has been done to your women and children, it becomes part of the scarred landscape, and part of the cycle of revenge. It’s horrific and unacceptable, whoever commits those and countless other barbaric acts, but don’t pretend that members of the IDF have never raped or murdered Palestinian women and children, because they have.

Who here is pretending that?
This is a thread about Judith Butler claiming that rape is part of armed resistance.
There is resistance and there is revenge and no good is done by conflating the two.

mirax · 06/03/2024 14:35

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 14:25

your 1. [majority Mizrahi] may be true but it feels counter-intuitive to me... if it were true why do all Israeli prime ministers without exception and the majority of Israelis in influential positions always seem to have been 1st-3rd generation Russian or similar? Israel's own official stats show that immigration from the former USSR dwarfs all origins... can it be that the kids of those immigrants somehow identify as not being European? this is a sincere question. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-immigration-to-israel-by-country-of-origin

your 2. I didn't say that.

your 3. I absolutely didn't say that. these are war crimes.

You keep wanting to divert the thread away from Butler and other apologists of rape.

Your facts are nonsense and your counter-intuition counts for zero, zilch, nada. 61% is mizrahi jews , 32% ashkenazi but this number seems to vary slightly based on self identification as people are of mixed heritage. There are also black ethiopian jews, indian jews etc in Israel.

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 14:39

qunari · 06/03/2024 14:34

Doesn't really answer my question.

What exactly do you think its okay for Palestinians to do with Israelis?

sigh. as a starting point, rape isn't ok, neither is torture.

RebelliousCow · 06/03/2024 14:40

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 14:25

your 1. [majority Mizrahi] may be true but it feels counter-intuitive to me... if it were true why do all Israeli prime ministers without exception and the majority of Israelis in influential positions always seem to have been 1st-3rd generation Russian or similar? Israel's own official stats show that immigration from the former USSR dwarfs all origins... can it be that the kids of those immigrants somehow identify as not being European? this is a sincere question. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-immigration-to-israel-by-country-of-origin

your 2. I didn't say that.

your 3. I absolutely didn't say that. these are war crimes.

Over 1 million Arab jews were forcefully expelled from surrounding arab countries and from Iran after 1948 - without any reparations at all. Their properties confiscated and the money from their sale used to fuel the 'resistance' to the existence of Israel.

Most people in Israel have mixed heritage, and add to that the numbers of peoples who are the descendents of people living in the region at the time of the creation of Israel. Jewish people have been returning to the Levant for hundreds of years - after the initial expulsions/enslavements under the Romans

Many of what we are calling Palestinians are actually from Egypt or Jordan, and some even from Turkey. Gaza used to be Egyptian until 1967, and the West Bank was Jordanian. Many of the original 700,000 displaced were semi nomadic peoples and bedouins from a wide surrounding region - which was then colloquially known as Southern Syria. There has never been a Palestinian state. The concept is a modern construction.

Yet we are expected to accept that 7 million people are now considered to be Palestinians ( with a right of return), even though they are in many cases second and third generation citizens of other countries such as The U.S.A, Jordan, Quatar, Kuwait, Europe and so on.

What's the differnce between an third generation 'Palestinian' American citizen and a second generation Israeli whose ancestors lived in Russia.
By the wayuntil the October revolution Jews were not permitted to live in Russia proper, they had to live in what was known as 'The Pale of Settlement'.

Jewish peoples have been expelled and wandering for many generations due to pograms and persecutions - but all the tribes of Israel originated in the Levant ( even if there were inter-marriages within host societies over time).

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 14:42

mirax · 06/03/2024 14:35

You keep wanting to divert the thread away from Butler and other apologists of rape.

Your facts are nonsense and your counter-intuition counts for zero, zilch, nada. 61% is mizrahi jews , 32% ashkenazi but this number seems to vary slightly based on self identification as people are of mixed heritage. There are also black ethiopian jews, indian jews etc in Israel.

"nonsense" facts? perhaps you could unpack that a little bit for me? are you saying the numbers in that source are wrong, or irrelevant, or both?

EdithStourton · 06/03/2024 14:43

I see the defenders of freedom rapists, er, freedom fighters, sorry, have joined the thread.

Fucking hell, that the world has come to this.

RebelliousCow · 06/03/2024 14:51

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 14:31

I did not say that Gaza and the West Bank were "part of Israel". I said that "Israel exerts a very high level of control" there. Do you disagree with this?

You used the word 'apartheid'.

Yes, Israel now exerts a lot of control over its own borders - for the reasons given above ( but yes there has now grown a problem with radicalised Israeli settlers on the West Bank).

There was no security wall around Gaza before Hamas were elected. There were joint farms and market gardens and Palestinians would freely travel into Israel for work, earning far more than they could in Gaza. Corruption by Hamas and other leaders have allowed infrastructure to deteriorate and crumble, whilst they channel all of their resources into the terror and smuggling tunnels...the tunnels in which Israeli hostages are being raped, even today. There are reports of both male and female hostages being raped in the most sickening of circumstances.

Grammarnut · 06/03/2024 14:53

When was raping women a part of political resistance?

AlphariusOmegron · 06/03/2024 14:53

The level of misinformation on this thread, not to mention rank racism, is going to get it shut down in 3...2....1....

HalebiHabibti · 06/03/2024 14:58

BonzoGates · 06/03/2024 12:46

So rape and beheading is an acceptable part of armed resistance?

Moofolk and HalebiHabibti - you need to give your heads a wobble

Thank you for your feedback. My opinion will not change.

qunari · 06/03/2024 14:58

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 14:39

sigh. as a starting point, rape isn't ok, neither is torture.

Fantastic. So what is okay?

Brushcut · 06/03/2024 15:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Calling it colonisation is a way of quickly making a complex situation seem black and white.

Were the European Jews who moved to Israel in the early to mid 20th century colonisers? Imo we don’t normally call refugees ‘colonisers’. And it’s even stranger to call Jews who are indigenous to the middle-east (over half of modern Israelis) colonisers.

You could say that the involvement of the British adds a colonial flavour to the whole thing, but then the land was ruled by multiple other empires before the British.

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 15:04

RebelliousCow · 06/03/2024 14:51

You used the word 'apartheid'.

Yes, Israel now exerts a lot of control over its own borders - for the reasons given above ( but yes there has now grown a problem with radicalised Israeli settlers on the West Bank).

There was no security wall around Gaza before Hamas were elected. There were joint farms and market gardens and Palestinians would freely travel into Israel for work, earning far more than they could in Gaza. Corruption by Hamas and other leaders have allowed infrastructure to deteriorate and crumble, whilst they channel all of their resources into the terror and smuggling tunnels...the tunnels in which Israeli hostages are being raped, even today. There are reports of both male and female hostages being raped in the most sickening of circumstances.

Edited

by the way, I did just Google the past list of Israeli prime ministers, of the 14, seven (the early ones) were both in Europe, the other seven were born in Israel but had European parents or grandparents... if that's not the classic settler-colonial model (USA/Australia etc style) then what is?

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 15:04

sorry 'born ' in Europe.

Brushcut · 06/03/2024 15:10

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 15:04

by the way, I did just Google the past list of Israeli prime ministers, of the 14, seven (the early ones) were both in Europe, the other seven were born in Israel but had European parents or grandparents... if that's not the classic settler-colonial model (USA/Australia etc style) then what is?

It doesn’t really work though, taking info about 14 prime ministers of a country and extrapolating to the whole country. The facts about the Israeli population are clear. I have no idea why leaders have tended to be of Russian extraction - maybe these families are particularly driven/political/educated?

In any case, the Russian immigrants to Israel were largely refugees facing horrible persecution. Again, normally we don’t refer to refugees as colonisers.

puffyisgood · 06/03/2024 15:18

Brushcut · 06/03/2024 15:10

It doesn’t really work though, taking info about 14 prime ministers of a country and extrapolating to the whole country. The facts about the Israeli population are clear. I have no idea why leaders have tended to be of Russian extraction - maybe these families are particularly driven/political/educated?

In any case, the Russian immigrants to Israel were largely refugees facing horrible persecution. Again, normally we don’t refer to refugees as colonisers.

as I linked above, the Jewish virtual library shows that around two thirds of the post 1948 immigration to Israel was from Eastern Europe. less than a quarter from the middle East & north Africa.

BonzoGates · 06/03/2024 15:29

HalebiHabibti · 06/03/2024 14:58

Thank you for your feedback. My opinion will not change.

That's because you are a terrorist sympathiser - an idealogue

BonzoGates · 06/03/2024 15:31

ideologue, I meant.

ArabellaScott · 06/03/2024 15:37

ALLthecheeses · 06/03/2024 14:28

Did Judith Bulter say rape and the murder of women and children are acceptable? I can’t listen to the clip at the moment.

She said it was 'armed resistance', and 'not terrorism'.

ArabellaScott · 06/03/2024 15:39

Quote:

“We can have different views about Hamas as a political party. We can have different views about armed resistance,” Butler stated. “But I think it is more honest and historically correct to say that the uprising of October 7 was an act of armed resistance. It is not a terrorist attack and it’s not an antisemitic attack,” she said. “It was an attack against Israelis.”

She went on: “The violence done to Palestinians has been happening for decades. This was an uprising that came from a state of subjugation and against a violent state apparatus.” The theorist added that “you can be for or against armed resistance. You can be for or against Hamas. But let us at least call it armed resistance. And then we can have a debate about whether we think it’s right or whether they did the right thing.”

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