Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

Also offending risk is based on sex not gender. Safeguarding based on sex makes sense, it does not based on gender. There is a vast evidence base supporting this.

In fact transwomen prisoners have a higher rate of sexual offending than non trans men prisoners. So on that basis you could argue are a greater risk (plus obvs the fact they won't take 'no' for an answer from women).

It never fails to amaze me how people don't realise they are being transphobic by insisting that transwomen should use women's spaces. They are ignoring completely people who have a gender identity of anything other than man or woman. Why should only transwomen and transmen have spaces for their gender but the cakegender, abimegender, cosmicgender, pyrogender etc be left out. The only way to be truly inclusive is to have males of any gender and females of any gender spaces.

Indeed - no men should have access to women's spaces - but the men who can least be trusted are the ones who demand to be in.

An inspired solution!

I'll vote for that.

Me too!

Segregating other groups? Like Male and Female?

Why aren't all the trans ally women clamouring for third spaces that they could share with transwomen?

Surely it is a win-win situation;

• the handmaids can be all smug about how inclusive they are,
• the transwomen get their validation from being in a space with real women who won't object to any of their behaviour,
• everyone else gets to be in a safe, single sex space.

Similarly for intimate care situations. All those trans providers would be run off their feet with having to attend to all the allies demanding their care.

Its really fucking rude to refer to people as handmaids. Why be such a dick?

I believe what you are referring to btw, is a gender neutral/unisex toilet which most of us use happily as they exist in many establishments already. In fact, I noted yesterday on bookable I could filter restaurants by which places had a gender neutral toilet.

Perhaps the real third space needs to be for women who are not comfortable sharing?

Perhaps the real third space needs to be for women who are not comfortable sharing?

Well yes, this is what we've talked about many times. One space for females, one for males, one for mixed.

Sorry if that hasn't been clear!

That is exactly what I was just about to say!

Although I'm sure it wouldn't be long before those areas became mixed sex - the Hampstead Ponds is the perfect example.

Perhaps the real third space needs to be for women who are not comfortable sharing?

So:

• Women from cultures and religious backgrounds who can’t be in a space with men
• Women who are breastfeeding and leaking, suffering from period/menopause flooding and other physical issues that make them desire a private space
• Very young and very old women who may be particularly vulnerable
• Women who have had traumatic encounters with men and male bodied people

That’s a lot of women for that third space.

I know who is being really rude and thoughtless here.

Yes, and its not me because I dont feel the need to call people names.

Mens, Womens, Unisex. Problem solved. I will go in whatever has the lesser queue and smell, tbh.

And who would be in that third space for women who needed female only provision, faster than a ferret down a hole?

Men.

Mens, Womens, Unisex. Problem solved. I will go in whatever has the lesser queue and smell, tbh.

Well good for you! Everyone should just follow your lead and stop making a fuss. Thanks for sorting it out for us silly women.

Perhaps the real third space needs to be for women who are not comfortable sharing?

Why should women who prefer single sex spaces be the ones who have to be the ones to swap? For one thing, they are in the vast majority; and for another, they aren't the ones causing a problem. How often do women sexually assault other people in toilets, or make other women feel uncomfortable in changing rooms?

By all means, name the third space "For Transgenders Or Women Who Are Not Comfortable With Sharing" (though you'll need a big sign for the doors), but let them use it, rather than taking the spaces from women, and pushing women into third spaces. We have second spaces, thank you, and that does us fine. Just keep all men out of them.

That's what we have been suggesting. but TW don't want it - they want to be "in the ladies"

By all means, name the third space "For Transgenders Or Women Who Are Not Comfortable With Sharing"

Frankly those women who can only access a single sex female space with no men in it? You can label it 'the screaming terf bitchface witch space' and we're not going to bloody care. Fill it with spiders, stuff it in a basement, just keep the bloody men out of it. Other away. We won't whinge and moan, we're just bloody grateful for a usable space at all.

And that's how you spot actual need and oppression as opposed to performative need and oppression, and that's also how you spot men whose main interest is in controlling, dominating and distressing women. Heard 'you're beautiful when you're angry darling?' when you've glared at some bell end whistling at you or demanding that you smile? Your reaction is all part of the thrill.

I've said it before, I will say it again, the consenting women won't do. They don't want the consenting women. Layla Moran can get her kit off all day and they don't care. They want the women who say no, who are frightened, who are distressed, who are excluded by them, who are harmed by their presence.

And that tells you everything you need to know about the sort of man they are.

You are WELCOME.

Feck!

Just realised that my table should have been *For Transgenders Or Women Who ARE Comfortable With Sharing"

Apologies one and all. I must have been blind with rage . . .

Should probably be ‘For transgenders AND women who are comfortable with sharing’

Wouldn’t want them to have to mingle with the mean terf witches who might call them names. They’ll be much safer in mixed sex spaces.

I can't remember who it was now, but some public figure muppet did announce that the answer for activists was a safe space away from all the nasty women who were ideologically impure . And women went "Yes! Yes please!"

And the muppet basically said "Fuck...." and reversed the ferret at high speed.

#nowomanleftinpeace

I don’t want to go in a unisex space. I actively avoid establishments with unisex toilets. I don’t want men in my space.

And trans women don’t want unisex either. They want to be in with me. So what is the answer? How about “no men, no penises, no Y chromosomes, in female only spaces”? I truly don’t get why this is a thing, @Mintyfreshtulips

And to continue, I don’t think this makes me a Terf. It makes me a Tepowts. Transexclusionary pissed off with this shit.

"Frankly those women who can only access a single sex female space with no men in it? You can label it 'the screaming terf bitchface witch space' and we're not going to bloody care. Fill it with spiders, stuff it in a basement, just keep the bloody men out of it. Other away. We won't whinge and moan, we're just bloody grateful for a usable space at all."

Exactly this!!!!
The problem is trans women aren't happy with this compromise, even though they hate us "terf bitchface witches" SO so much, they still want to be around us... For some reason?

I've said this time and time again, but I do NOT want to be around male bodied people during a time when I'm at my most vulnerable.
I'm just into my second trimester as an example and starting to show, I feel bloated and frankly like the 'Stay Puft Marshmallow Man' with engorged sore boobs that fucking ITCH to high heaven.
I don't want to be forced into a mixed sex changing room at the pool in this state, I just don't.
And that's before the baps have even started leaking which I hear according to my mother, I'm in for somewhat soon.
My local pool ONLY has mixed sex facilities.
What am I doing about it?
Well afaik they don't offer women only swim sessions, so I'm left with just not going at all.

Sorry not sorry, but the cubicles have huge gaps both above and below the stalls.
When I've gone before, when not pregnant, men have chosen to go into the cubicle right next to mine despite there being MANY other available cubicles.
It's intimidating as fuck and made me feel extremely vulnerable.
They came out of their cubicle at the same time as me despite my lingering around trying to wait for them to leave first.
Why should I have to be okay with this situation being allowed to happen because of 0.01%(or whatever the bloody stats are at now) of the population's desire to be affirmed??

I highly recommend those who think we're all just gross bigots to take a glance at r/MtF on reddit sometime.
It's not a fetish for all of them I'm under no delusions that for many it's genuine distress and incredibly difficult, but it definitely is a fetish for some.
Which begs the question that's been asked many times on this thread;
HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE?!
Perhaps Minty would rather we wait until a visible "Euphoria boner" is paraded in front of us to be able to discern who's who. I'd rather avoid that possibility altogether.

I'd happily use a changing room or toilet labelled with "TERF" under these circumstances despite hating the label and feeling it doesn't apply to me. I know and love trans people and am more than willing to march with them should the need arise.
However not all of them know or love us, clearly.
Just the other day r/MtF had a thread talking about if it's normal to get "wet" when they'd get when aroused post-bottom surgery as they'd been told it wasn't possible (Which it isn't), and how the wetness comes from the bloody urethra, "Just like biological women".
Neo-Vagina's don't self lubricate, so bugger knows what they're doing, weeing themselves I guess?
Which begs the question, do these males who want to be women so badly seriously believe that women pee from their vaginas/that they're the same hole like literal teenage boys do?!!
Because it very much seemed to be the case from reading that thread!
(Happy to find the link for anyone who thinks I'm making this up!)
For people who so badly desire being female, they seem to know bugger all about female anatomy and severely hyper-sexualise "soaking their panties".
😷😷