Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

I’m only interested in how they engage and try to exert control over women. Biological women that is as there is no other type.

Thats fine. We can care about whoever we want to!

Well what is the problem?

It'll be a space where everyone there is of their gender, won't it?

I think there's a problem when 'These men' overlap with 'transwomen', the two are not mutually exclusive. Sometimes the overlap seems quite large.

Because it literally makes zero logical sense perhaps?

What’s your solution?

I didnt day I had one.

Again - I was responding to PP who said if TW really thought they were women, why do they protest a third space with other TW if they truly believed there was no difference between them and a biological women?

Yes, gender ideology does make no sense whatsoever.

If transwomen are women then being with other transwomen shouldn't be a problem.

Because it's no different to segregating other groups?

No it isn't. Spaces for women include all types of women. As transwomen aren't women, they are excluded. Transwomen are welcome to use spaces for men or if they don't like that, can campaign for third, mixed sex spaces. I haven't seen any evidence that transwomen are unsafe in male spaces, we know that many do use them with no issue as they have told us. Women definitely have been harmed by transwomen in female spaces so tw need to stay the fuck out of them.

Segregation of the sexes exists because too many men are complete dicks. If males sort their shit out and start acting like decent humans who actually give a shit about others then there could possibly be a rethink. As it is, they are a long way from that and therefore women's single sex spaces are essential.

Ffs why is it always presented as a problem for women to solve. It’s like going to a cats home and saying “Why won’t you let dogs in? Huh? Well what’s your solution then? Where are the dogs meant to go? Don’t you CARE about dogs?”

It's important to be aware that a lot of the men forcing their way into women's spaces claiming they're women have not made any changes to their bodies nor do they intend to. They are heterosexual, anatomically intact fetishists. There are those under the frankly giant trans umbrella who feel there is something wrong with their body/ that their body doesn't match their brain/ soul/ personality - but my impression is those forcing through the eradication of single sex spaces are not generally of that type

Sometimes, 'these men' are transwomen. You know that, there are numerous examples. There are HM Prison Service stats bearing out that males identifying as TW are disproportionately likely to be sex offenders, compared to either women or to men who don't identify as TW. You know that.

You know what the problem is, so I assume you just don't like what the problem is. But that doesn't change what the problem is.

Sometimes they are transwomen, and sometimes they are men that abuse self ID/Have sexual fetish etc.

And how are we supposed to tell the difference, on a changing room or anywhere else?

Their motivation isn’t important.

They’re all male and women can’t tell the difference (unless they have the psychic powers of Layla Moran) and don’t care.

Any transwoman who is acting in good faith will understand that women have single sex spaces for good reason, and that if one male is allowed in there it becomes far harder to keep the others out. So he won’t try to come in.

Nailed it. It's absurd. And an absolute fucking cheek.

Because it's no different to segregating other groups?

Like accessible facilities for people who have disabilities you mean? Well the whole point is to provide a service that meets their needs.

If transwomen 'can't' use male facilities then they should use the facilities provided for them, not the female facilities. It's really very simple.

Eh?

This isn't segregation. We're not segregating some groups of women from others. No women are being excluded. All women are free to use women's facilities. Men are not. That has been the case since forever and it's not changing.

Men, including transwomen, are excluded because they are not women and as a class they pose a threat to women. That's not segregation, that's just sensible.

This is a perfect summary.
the cries of ‘excluding us from sport’ ‘we just want to use the toilet’ ‘we just want to live our lives’ ring hollow when Trans Rights Activists and TRA organisations such as Stonewall won’t even allow a debate on a third space. It’s the absolutely logical solution.

Quite. The consenting women in the third space won't do.

They want the non consenting ones. And to dominate all the spaces and all the women all of the time, even in the face of knowing damn well the exclusion and harm involved to women. They do not care, they have no interest, which leads me to the conclusion that the harm to and coercive control of women is the point. Apparently it's no fun without it.

Which is when I went from 'aww bless, must be tough to live with gender dysphoria' to 'fuck that mate'.

If people campaigned for the provision of separate trans spaces, this would effectively remove trans people's presence in many community spaces.

As opposed to removing women, you mean?

There is no reason why transpeople can't use the facilities for their SEX (which is observable and physical) rather than those for their "gender" which is an indefinable idea in some people's heads.. And also, there are umpteen genders - they can't all have their own loo - but only two sexes, and we can cope with that.

That's why most campaigns are about inclusion.

That's why women here are arguing that the inclusion of women in women's spaces should come before working out how to add men into them.

Unless by 'inclusion' you actually mean 'dick pandering'.

You cannot put men in women's spaces without pushing women out, and disadvantaging many more. I really have no more tears to shed about how sad that may make some men, since they have no interest at all in the women they're pushing out and harming.

I really want a t-shirt which says by 'inclusion' you actually mean 'dick pandering' now

Just makes me think of this and all the dick panderers with their sad faces that men aren't being prioritised.