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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The pope says 'gender theory' causes divisions

273 replies

ArabellaScott · 16/01/2024 14:44

'Peace requires respect for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Attempts to introduce new rights, which are not always acceptable, lead to instances of ideological colonization that create divisions rather than fostering peace, as in the case of gender theory.'

https://twitter.com/Pontifex/status/1746147585331703936

https://twitter.com/Pontifex/status/1746147585331703936

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NecessaryScene · 16/01/2024 18:32

I don't really understand what you're asking to be honest. What other identities are you suggesting we do/should base legislation on? Generally we don't legislate people's identities, sex is an outlier in that respect which is why it receives such scrutiny.

Age is the obvious one. The legislation for both age and sex is to protect more vulnerable individuals. Next most obvious is disability.

Almost all such legislation (or non-legislative measures) are equity response to deal with the fact different individuals have real different needs and vulnerabilities.

Given that the legislation is designed to deal with reality, of course reality takes priority.

Female sport exists because of the reality of female bodies. Feelings are not relevant. Similarly age categories. Similarly disabilities.

If you advocate for male people in female sport, why not adults in junior sport, or able-bodied people in disabled sport?

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 18:36

PrawnLiberationFront · 16/01/2024 17:36

This is another thing I've never understood is your repeated insistence that "gender identity" is some difficult to define or difficult to understand concept.

Gender identity (in this context) is your own internal perception of what sex you are. For most people, this correlates with their sexed body. For a few people, it doesn't. It's not rocket science.

"Internal" where though?

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 18:39

NecessaryScene · 16/01/2024 17:52

If you're able to perceive your sex then you have an internal perception of it. That's all gender identity is.

Therefore people who have a gender identity different from their sex don't have a gender identity.

Yup.

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 18:41

OldCrone · 16/01/2024 17:53

They might dress or act a certain way to bring themselves in line with the typical presentation of the gender they feel they are, but that's different to believing that's what causes them to be that gender.

Why would they do that? Is that because they like gender stereotypes?

How do you "feel" your "gender"?

Leyenda · 16/01/2024 18:42

PrawnLiberationFront · 16/01/2024 17:10

And yet most conservatives are GC. Funny that.

Most people don’t believe that a man can become a woman. Most people don’t believe that rapists belong in female prisons, women’s refuges and rape centres, or that male athletes should be winning women’s sport competitions and taking women’s college scholarships and prize money that was set up to help balance male privilege.

Most people are also uncomfortable with men in fetish gear and giant fake breasts ‘educating’ preteens about kink and recommending life-changing sterilisation to those kids who feel nervous of puberty or who don’t conform to sexist stereotypes.

Most people don’t want their daughters lied to in science lessons or forced to get changed in front of boys at school, or share a tent with adult men on school trips as the man wakes up with morning glory but tells the girls to just get over it cos some women have penises. Most people think that female suspects shouldn’t be strip searched by male-bodied police officers, and that female police officers shouldn’t have to pat down a male suspect just because he wants her to.

The vast majority of people, in every place around the world, most definitely believe that men are men and women are women and this is important and can’t change. I am short. Identifying as tall will not make me miraculously grow. (Wearing 10 inch heels would not make me tall either, merely ridiculous.)

I am not ‘GC’ I am not ‘right wing’ or ‘left wing’ I refuse to allow angey mwn to give me a lable and say I’m in some kind of lobbying movement. I’m a pretty average person, with the ability of a average person to tell the difference between a man and a woman and know why that is important. I have an average person’s objections to being told by deluded fanatics what to think and what to say.

The only difference between the so called left wing and the so called right wing (incredibly out of date, pointless terms) on this issue is that people on the left wing are frightened to say what they think on this issue. Look at how the Greens and Lib Dems have purged their members. Look at the death threats sent to Rosie Duffield and how Starmer looks the other way as his female colleagues are bullied out of their jobs for daring to say that sex exists. Look at how Sturgeon treated those who disagreed with her fanaticism.

For what it’s worth I am a huge Tony Blair fan and I also voted for Jeremy Corbyn. Voting Sunak next time though, sadly.

But if you live in a fantasy world, feel free to go on believing that it’s all a conservative conspiracy 😂🤦‍♀️😂 Or maybe go to the library, read some history and learn about why freedom of speech is important and perhaps also why women need single sex spaces. Maybe look up what the “scold’s bridal” was and when it was last used, and reflect on the fact that until 1967 the British statute books still contained the criminal offence of being a scold.

lordloveadog · 16/01/2024 18:42

'His internal perception of his gender identity doesn't match his sex'

is an obfuscating way of saying

'This man really, really feels like he ought to be female but he is not'.

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 18:44

flyingbuttress43 · 16/01/2024 18:00

I am trying to understand exactly what Prawn means by an internal perception of sex.

Can you be more specific Prawn? At the moment it feels as if you are trying to nail jelly to the wall.

Or even nailing prawns to the wall.

How do prawns feel gender internally? We need to know.

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 18:46

PrawnLiberationFront · 16/01/2024 18:03

Knowing something is an internal perception.

So I know men are not women. So I have an internal perception that men are men?

lordloveadog · 16/01/2024 18:47

Also, no perception can be internal. By definition perception involves some kind of external input through the senses.

Perception isn't what Prawn means. Perceptions don't arise spontaneously in humans separate from material and social contexts.

Although by coincidence, neither do beliefs about gender identities or sex stereotypes. Anything belief that someone of a particular sex must feel male or female in a particular way is learnt and profoundly social.

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 18:52

fedupandstuck · 16/01/2024 18:15

I totally believe that they have that feeling. I just don't see why that should be relevant to me or anyone else.

The feeling seems to be in the penis as that's the bit they seem to always want surgery on? So is this feeling internal to genitals? Inside my vag I have a lady feeling?

Asking for a friend.

CeeCeeBloom · 16/01/2024 18:53

PrawnLiberationFront · 16/01/2024 18:07

Seriously though, this is what I mean-because you're so ideologically commited to denying gender identity exists you have to adopt this bizarre faux-naivity and pretend you don't know what a concept as simple as an "internal perception" is. You have to pretend it's all horribly esoteric and complex but it isn't so you just make yourself look silly.

Sounds like something a religious fanatic would say.

elgreco · 16/01/2024 18:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

flyingbuttress43 · 16/01/2024 19:00

The really scary thing is that the whole of society is being asked to change because of something Prawn describes as inexplicable and unknoweable, a fantasy held by a tiny minority of people. Really?

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 19:04

PrawnLiberationFront · 16/01/2024 18:19

Or so you perceive it. But all you're doing here is insisting your internal reality is more real than other people's.

This falls down when you acknowledge that bodies are real too.

We don't have to ever pretend male bodies are female. Because they aren't.

EasternStandard · 16/01/2024 19:06

flyingbuttress43 · 16/01/2024 19:00

The really scary thing is that the whole of society is being asked to change because of something Prawn describes as inexplicable and unknoweable, a fantasy held by a tiny minority of people. Really?

Depressingly yes

And it’s now within schools which is even more concerning for dc who listen as it’s adults in positions of authority

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 19:09

PrawnLiberationFront · 16/01/2024 18:28

But there is no single experience of "what a female feels". There's no universal internal or external experience that is experienced by all women or only women. So which particular female would they have to feel like in order to feel like a woman in a way that would be authentic to you? That isn't something that's quantifiable.

Agreed, so a man having female feelings is only "authentic" to that man. It doesn't have to be "authentic" to anyone else.

I can see his male body and not consider his female feelings to be "authentic".

I think we agreed 😁

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2024 19:13

Yes, as I said upthread Prawn has basically argued our case for us.

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 19:14

Froodwithatowel · 16/01/2024 18:29

GC is conservative.
Safeguarding is conservative.
Women's rights are conservative.
Equality for women is conservative.
Equality of human rights is conservative.

If all this is true then the left's remaining claimed territory is getting very worrying.

Ecology is conservative.
Protection of species is conservative.
Conservation of the land is conservative.
Why the left are anti conservative principles is baffling.

They seem to want to lay waste to everything.

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 19:15

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2024 19:13

Yes, as I said upthread Prawn has basically argued our case for us.

Thanks Prawn. We nailed it.

EasternStandard · 16/01/2024 19:16

So a male can feel whatever way they wish and look however they want and enter female spaces

Can they enter female spaces for women and girls of all ages?

Where’s the safeguarding?

PrawnLiberationFront · 16/01/2024 19:16

Froodwithatowel · 16/01/2024 18:29

GC is conservative.
Safeguarding is conservative.
Women's rights are conservative.
Equality for women is conservative.
Equality of human rights is conservative.

If all this is true then the left's remaining claimed territory is getting very worrying.

Did you know you can believe in all these things without villifying trans people. Crazy but true.

newtlover · 16/01/2024 19:17

I don't think all trans people are either mad or liars.
Many I would say are deluded, misled or misguided.
Some are liars I'm sure and have nefarious reasons for their claims, trouble is, we have no way of knowing which these are.

While there have probably always been people who don't conform to the gender roles associated with their sex, for all kinds of reasons, I don't believe any really believed themselves to be the opposite sex. This is a recent ideology, which is another reason to be sceptical of its claims.

It's an ideology (and not simply a private delusion) because many of its adherents require the rest of society to behave as if the delusion is true and that has serious impacts for the rest of us.

When I was at primary school there was a boy who maintained he was an alien. He had an elaborate back story for this and seemed quite sincere in his belief. People would tease him and he never wavered. His perception was that he was an alien. But he didn't require us to believe him, or change anything, he just got on with it.

I would bet serious money that he wasn't an alien at all. Just like a trans woman is not a woman at all, whatever perception they have. It doesn't really matter what their internal state is, what matters is what they do in the world.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2024 19:18

Did you know you can believe in all these things without villifying trans people. Crazy but true.

Thinking gender identity ideology is nonsensical isn't "vilifying" anyone.

PrawnLiberationFront · 16/01/2024 19:19

Hepwo · 16/01/2024 18:36

"Internal" where though?

Have you never had an internal feeling, Hepwo? We can delve into dualism and whether thoughts and feelings happen in your brain or mind if you like, but let's just suffice to say this internal feeling happens in the same place your other internal feelings do.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2024 19:21

It's amusing that you think you're being clever with your little digs at people.

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