The pope says 'gender theory' causes divisions

[ArabellaScott]

'Peace requires respect for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Attempts to introduce new rights, which are not always acceptable, lead to instances of ideological colonization that create divisions rather than fostering peace, as in the case of gender theory.'

https://twitter.com/Pontifex/status/1746147585331703936

I suspect that Prawn lives in a POMO world where a person is whatever they say they are. So therefore, if someone says they are a woman, that is all that is needed. The 'authenticity' is that that person lives as their own personal definition of what female's life experience is.

Obviously, Prawn is very heavily invested in this need to portray an ideological concept as being material reality. Very heavily invested.

And yet, has Prawn produced any evidence that there is anything of substance? Except that some people may or may not genuinely hold a belief that they are the opposite sex, based on that person's built up concept of what a person of the opposite sex lives like not the material reality of having ever lived a life living in a sexed body of the opposite sex? Anything? No? Just assertion after assertion and an attempt to shame, denigrate and diminish all those who are disbelievers of Prawn's own ideology.

I am sure readers of this thread can see it. And yet Prawn doesn't seem to be able to engage with any contribution beyond those empty assertions and the cycle of denigration and derogation. That is a very typical tactic of an extreme trans activist, whether this poster is or not. They may have copied the interactions off twitter thinking it was compelling and convincing, or they just want to make themselves feel better by using the 'gotchas' regularly deployed on short form social media.

I look forward to the answers to the questions that posters have asked. I expect that nothing that will be presented that will be new or even that will withstand scrutiny and analysis.

My parallel analogy "Does the Pope wear a funny hat"?

The pope suggested last year that trans people could be baptised, and be godparents, which was taken as a move towards acceptance and inclusion. [Edit, sorry, Nitro, I somehow missed that bit of your post and have repeated it!]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/09/trans-people-can-be-baptised-in-church-and-be-godparents-says-vatican

This is what I meant by saying his statement seems nuanced. He has welcomed trans people to events and made supportive statements. His statement in the OP is about the ideology, not the people.

I dug a little bit and found this:

ON GENDER IDENTITY[02/2015]

"Let's think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings. Let's think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation."

(HRC comment: 'In Andrea Tornielli and Giacomo Galeazzi's new book Pope Francis: This Economy Kills, Francis condemns "gender theory," comparing it to nuclear war and genetic manipulation.4
His analogy stems from the Church's understanding of the gender spectrum within the restrictive duality of man and woman, rejecting the disconnection of gender identity and gender expression from biology. In reality, the pontiff's view, grounded in the Biblical story of Adam and Eve, ignores the existence and experiences of millions of transgender and gender variant individuals who do not fit the strict duality. And doing so would be a gross caricature of human history that hs provided space for the Biblical Ethiopian Eunuch and other gender variant people throughout the centuries.')

https://www.hrc.org/resources/seven-quotes-that-make-pope-francis-complicated-for-lgbt-people

Agree. I don't understand why they're so insistent that we all have gender identities. I don't, I am guessing that many 100,000s of Mums on this site don't as well. We are just getting along with life being females, becoming pregnant, feeding our babies, choosing school, maybe juggling work with family.
Wallowing in 'gender identity' bleurgh seems like such a naval-gazing narcissist pre-occupation for people who have empty voids in their lives.
That's why we Mums encourage our kids with MH problems (and not!) to take up hobbies.

Agree. I don't understand why they're so insistent that we all have gender identities.

Because their pseudoscience depends on it.

Gender identity (in this context) is your own internal perception of what sex you are. For most people, this correlates with their sexed body. For a few people, it doesn't. It's not rocket science

Sorry I haven’t read the whole thread but just amused that the definition of gender identity has been tweaked yet again. I’ve not seen this one before. Still idiotic though. How can you have your own internal perception of being a sex that you are not.

It's a feeling!

And for that feeling we are removing young girls' breasts. Giving children unevidenced hormonal medication. And putting rapists in women's prisons.

What a feeling!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ufQUxoidxkM

It's more than that though, it's not just any old feeling. Not like the boring feelings you have. It's special.

Special. I see.

Gender identity (in this context) is your own internal perception of what sex you are. For most people, this correlates with their sexed body. For a few people, it doesn't. It's not rocket science

Prawn is correct that it is not rocket science. It is not any sort of science at all. Prawn has gone on to confirm that this ‘internal perception’ of what sex you are is in fact a feeling.

I don’t see any evidence that people have a ‘feeling’ or ‘perception’ of their sex. People KNOW what sex they are because they know some biological facts and they know what features their own body has. A feeling is neither here nor there. We know that many trans people have a wish to be the opposite sex. Perhaps this is the perception/feeling Prawn speaks of.

It's a feeling that is masquerading as a perception. Possibly a transperception ?

People KNOW what sex they are because they know some biological facts and they know what features their own body has.

Not so. A three year old can tell men and women apart without seeing their genitals. And he knows which of the two groups he belongs to even if nobody has ever talked to him about his genitals.

Of course it could be socialised rather than innate, but it's still real. So I can concede that it could go wrong.

What I don't understand @PrawnLiberationFront is why we need to make any further concessions beyond simple everyday kindness. Why must birth sex be erased even when it is important for practical reasons?

We cannot give trans people what they truly desire, because it's impossible. That's tragic and it's nobody's fault.

Why is it tragic that they can't have what they truly desire?

A 42-year-old soldier who recently announced his gender transition is slamming the Spanish Army for putting up obstacles to his use of the female changing rooms. Francisco Javier L. G., first began changing his legal documents in the spring of 2023 following the enactment of Spain’s controversial Trans Law.

It's not at all tragic that this man should not be using female changing rooms.

https://reduxx.info/spain-male-soldier-claims-he-is-being-discriminated-against-after-being-prevented-from-using-female-changing-rooms/

I don't think it's tragic either. Men can't have what they want all the time. Shrug.

Tragic in the theatrical sense, of bad outcomes or unhappiness arising from people's desires or actions. I do pity some trans people, also.

Should have added - the tragedy is that he can't really become a woman, not that he can't use the women's changing room. (Assuming he's genuine for the sake of argument.)

Nothing wrong with this feeling. People are free to feel whatever they wish BUT they cannot insist that others/the law etc follow their script

Our resident sea creature is so focussed on internal sense of wotsit that they forget material reality. I might believe I'm a unicorn. My body is going to carry on reacting as a (rather knackered) middle aged woman. This is going to have meaningful effects on the medication I may need, my physical capabilities etc etc.

Quite. Other people's rights are equally important.

Dealing with that is a basic requirement of a functional adult.

Surely their gender identity is male, because only males can experience the feeling of being a man who feels like he thinks a woman does.

I know it’s a bit derailing but I can’t let this go without saying thank you for a bit of Terry.

Church of England would love to be TWAW if only for their pesky parishioners who raise concerns - we are awaiting this year whether they understand what a woman is.

Catholic Church though is terfy af. They don't recognise gender identity - at all.

I'd expect the pope to reflect that and his comment is very incisive.

I CBA to read the whole thread so maybe it’s already been posted but wanted to point out that no TRA can accuse the Pope of never even having met a transgender person:

https://www.them.us/story/pope-ate-pasta-alongside-trans-women-the-vatican