Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals

[IamSarah]

Really insightful post on X the platform formally known as Twitter I feel it's worth sharing on here:

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1745760345954689255?s=46&t=NGJBRqkXgp1UazF5I8yjXA

I think the Late Night Litter Picking Fascists & Friends thread might’ve been deleted?

Aha! Was that the one with Extinction Rebellion, where a suppprter turned up to deny that any of them had ever left any litter anywhere? Tidy men named stuart may have been involved?

Nah, that must’ve been the other Late Night Litter Picking Fascists & Friends thread 😉

I know it won’t show on this thread but I’d just like to announce that I’ve namechanged to EmpressOfTheScathingTinsel.

😍

Oh, good call. You inspired me!

What I've not seen is any mission creep within those grassroots groups & women, slowly or quickly, descending into right wing religious zealots hellbent on usurping the aims women are fighting for into anti abortion or anti LGB people/rights.

While this may not be occurring in UK feminism, it most certainly is in US feminism. The group, Moms for Liberty, has some aims that left-leaning, grassroots feminists agree with: namely, porny graphic novels shouldn't be in children's library collections and that gender woo shouldn't be taught as facts in public schools.

Many women and men who are appalled by the creep of gender ideology and kinky sex education into school curriculum support Moms of Liberty into. However, the creep DID come into play as now Moms of Liberty suggests book banning that is far more overreaching, and includes innocuous books like a little Black girl learning to love her braids. These same groups are funded by anti-abortion groups, an issue which, IMO, is a greater threat in my own country.

So, if JCJ and the Brighton feminists fear this creep, there is evidence that it exists in other countries.

It's like we can't have nice things before mission creep takes over, which is a shame because women should be forming alliances and getting over their differences to align on shared goals. I prefer to fight single issue topics, but that's likely unreasonable.

Maybe I should take this question to AIBU? LOL

I think keeping orgs small and focussed has really helped with avoiding mission creep in the UK

Breaking off into multiple small groups that concentrate on smaller chunks (eg law, therapy, safeguarding, prisons, sports, lesbians, gay men, schools etc).

’Moms Against Age-Innappropriate Sexual Content’ would likely fair better than ‘Moms for Liberty’ because the mission is tightly defined (even if the actual women involved are the same women!)

People can then pick and choose the bits that interest them most without having to compromise on other aspects. Cuts down on the never ending meetings and internal debates if you can answer 90% of questions with ‘That’s not in our remit, contact Group X instead’.

It’s a good defensive strategy against both religious tangents and the EDI Vampire.

I think there are some cultural differences with the US too in terms of religious factors

I don't think what you're describing is the same thing. Moms for Liberty seem to be a conservative and mainly Christian group. This is nothing like the women's groups in the UK, many of whose supporters are left wing and have no religious affiliation.

Yeah, in the U.K. the EDI Vampire is a much bigger threat to Women’s Right’s Activism than Religious Fundamentalists are.

Hence all the intersectional feminist orgs falling to shit no longer able to actually help just women, and the gay orgs becoming homophobic by redefining homosexual (see also: Susie G getting the boot from Mermaids due to accusations of able-ism and white supremacy).

Again, I'll repeat - we are not the US. Their politics, and extreme ends of their political spectrum are not a mirror of what we have here in the UK.

I'm saying it's an extreme & irrational fear of a particular group of left wing so-called feminists who fixate on this as though we've got countless sleeper cells embedded in the grass roots groups of women around the UK. It's so beyond absurd it should be laughed off. Spend some time with the women in the groups these guilt by association smears are maligning & then come back and tell us all how right or wrong this is.

Social media isn't real life. Real life women are working their arses off trying to make a difference in the political landscape of the UK. If some people want to fixate on an entirely different country with a completely different & complex culture, political system, and history, have at it. I'm simply asking that those obsessed with the 'potential' mission creep here in the UK, in grass roots women's orgs, go out and spend a little time with those they're fond of lecturing & try listening to them & see how 'radicalised' they actually are.

If the outcome to that uncovers the radicalised mostly middle aged women who have been active & campaigning for the last 5/6/7/8 years as white nationalists & fundamentalist Christian extremists, I'll concede I've got this all wrong & offer up a gracious apology.

I'm going to be honest & say I don't think that'll happen. But I'm open to the possibility. So have at it & come back & let us know how that real life exposure to grass roots women & their maybe/possibly extreme radicalisation turns out.

It's not so much that everyone is captured and believes it but that all the edi people believe stonewall law is the law and that somehow tw became sacred and above all other protected characteristics including tm obviously. And are shit scared of being sued as tra have effectively used the echr and our own police, courts etc to make everyone believe it is so.

The fact the actual law doesn't back this up is very very slowly coming to light, because gc women have decided to fight back also using the system.

This is working. Keep on complaining to the BBC, ipsos, your mp, anywhere and everything.

I thought you were equating Moms for Liberty with feminist groups, but on rereading I don't think that's what you meant.

Different groups with a different focus exist, obviously. There are non-feminist groups in the UK which are fighting this, and some of them are more conservative and/or have a religious focus. Feminists who agree with them on the gender issue don't necessarily agree on anything else.

I don't understand what this 'creep' is that you say the Brighton feminists fear. What is it? Do they really think atheist left-wing feminists are suddenly going to turn into Tory-voting Christians if they so much as speak to the other groups?

Is there any groups here equivalent to those women’s groups such as Moms for Liberation? I don’t know of any, but there could be. The issue is though, that I agree with others. This fear is unfounded I think.

Having followed this Brighton group’s activities around this, the targeted nature of the action against KJk seems far too personal. The effort has been huge! That page, the fb group and the magazine edition. Huge.

And again, there is cross over with some of the most significant UK feminists groups leadership. It is a mess and it is very concerning because of those connections and the way this core group has acted.

Oh the one with the bendy thumbs. I remember now. Makes me very uncomfortable.

Again, I'll repeat - we are not the US. Their politics, and extreme ends of their political spectrum are not a mirror of what we have here in the UK.

True, and I noted that, but I've also seen on Twitter, here and elsewhere that something akin to a US cultural creep where the likes of a Matt Walsh gets discussed, inserted, used etc. to CLAIM UK feminism is being infiltrated because often voices in social media overlap because of our shared language and the dominance of English as a lingua franca around the world. I don't know why, if it's US bullying/US size or social media algorithms, really no idea precisely what is behind it all, but to pretend you're not or won't be impacted isn't accurate, IMO, precisely because the JCJ/Brighton feminists seem to believe it as they read and react to these voices on social media.

I've read closer the posts, so I'll just add that the below makes a great deal of sense to me. I hope that @IamSarah , if she has an ear to the JCJ et al groups, she could persuade her and the rest to do just this.

I'm simply asking that those obsessed with the 'potential' mission creep here in the UK, in grass roots women's orgs, go out and spend a little time with those they're fond of lecturing & try listening to them & see how 'radicalised' they actually are.

I don't understand what this 'creep' is that you say the Brighton feminists fear. What is it? Do they really think atheist left-wing feminists are suddenly going to turn into Tory-voting Christians if they so much as speak to the other groups?

The impression I have is that they’re terrified of doing anything that might piss off Labour.

The impression I have is that they’re terrified of doing anything that might piss off Labour.

That's my impression too. But I don't know why, when Labour are busy pissing all over them.

"Be quiet or you'll make Labour angry" is far too much like being coercively controlled for me.

Me too.

I’m trying to think of conservative/centre right orgs but it’s
deffo not my area of expertise!

There are orgs run by right wing figures such as Free Speech Union (Toby Young) they do as much work (possibly more!) for people on the left as on the right. I guess The Bad Law Project is similar in that it’s associated with a right wing figure (Laurence Fox) but they assist whoever needs it/makes a good case/news story regardless of personal political affiliations

apart from that, Turning Point UK maybe?

No right wing women’s orgs that I can think of, except Conservative Women, but they aren’t really a separate org to the Tory party, just a women’s interest group within the party membership (I assume?)

Like I said, this is not my wheelhouse (but when we went looking for actual fascists on a previous thread we discovered that the National Front are down to double digit member territory 🙊

Indeed.