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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jane Clare Jones on purity spirals

1000 replies

IamSarah · 12/01/2024 11:26

Really insightful post on X the platform formally known as Twitter I feel it's worth sharing on here:

x.com/janeclarejones/status/1745760345954689255?s=46&t=NGJBRqkXgp1UazF5I8yjXA

OP posts:
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IamSarah · 12/01/2024 11:26

Copied below for those not on X.

So, my last thought atm on the 'no-guilt-by-association-no-purity-spirals' thing.

There is something expressed by this thought that, as I've said, I think is correct... and that is that in a liberal democratic society it is important to respect the rights of all people to hold their own views, act in accordance with their own values, and express their political ideas. A large political movement benefits from diversity of perspectives, and different focuses, and it's important to respect that people can do valuable work even if we don't agree with everything they think. It is also, important, in a liberal democratic society, not to retreat into 'no debate' and to keep lines of public dialogue open over matters of contention. Many people, understandably, want to resist the kind of totalitarian thought policing characteristic of the trans rights movement.

At the same time, political movements can be co-opted by other political forces that have other political agendas in a manner which can dissipate or distort their key focus and can turn it against the interests of the people it was originally intended to represent. I think the concerns about this go in both directions and are not entirely baseless,

Much of institutional and academic feminism was captured by trans ideology in a manner that turned it against the interests of women. The result of that, to take one concrete example, is that @SarahSurviving was unable to access a female only rape counselling group when she needed one.

In that context, I don't think people's concerns that the gender critical movement could be co-opted, or could end up making concessions to trans ideology is without basis. These concerns have tended to focus on issues of the use of gendered/wrong-sex pronouns, phrases like 'trans woman,' and the presence of trans identified people at GC events. We can debate the finer points of these issues, but my observation is that many campaign groups have listened to these concerns and have taken much of it on board. However, at the same time, these concerns have been coupled with claims that the British GC movement has not achieved a great deal, and the reason for this is its concessions to the language of trans ideology and the presence of trans identified people. I do not think this claim is based in reality. The British GC movement has mounted the most successful resistance to trans ideology on the face of the planet. And I see no evidence that any of the campaign groups intend to make concessions to the substantive political questions of the definition of sex in law and the preservation of single sex spaces.

There may be some substantive disagreement here regarding the GRA, but these are largely pragmatic, rather than ideological. Many groups are focussed on trying to fix the problem in what they consider to be the most viable way under the present set of political circumstances. I don't know any GC people who think the GRA is a good law, or who don't understand that it being a terrible law is the fundamental root of the present conflict. That is different from whether they think trying to repeal it is a viable political goal, or whether they want to commit themselves to the long, arduous and extremely expensive legal process that it would be necessary to go through in order to get it repealed. With respect to the issue of plurality of action, I think people who want to achieve this political goal should organise in order to try and achieve it if that is the course of action they think best. I think trying to bully other campaign groups into adopting this goal is not on, and nor is completely rubbishing what they are trying to achieve.

As I said, I also think these concerns go both ways. The other axis of the 'no-guilt-by-association-no-purity-spirals' rhetoric concerns taking platforms, or any kind of financial support, or engaging in joint legal action or publicity, with either Christian or white nationalists (note, not just any kind of conservative person in general). The basis for this objection is also not without foundation, and is about the concern that a movement originally grounded in the defence of the interests of women and gay and lesbian people could be co-opted by people who are hostile to the political interests of women and homosexuals, and is also white supremacist. From my, and many other people's observation, over the last couple of years, the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists. There is a great deal of explicitly anti-feminist discourse (hi Matt and James), lots of people who are more or less explicitly anti-abortion, not inconsiderable homophobia, and also a lot of 'great replacement' theory discourse, as well as covid conspiracy and general QAnon type stuff. For many feminist women this is a problem. They fear that the energy of the UK GC movement could be fed into the hands of very powerful, and increasingly dominant, populist forces who will use that against women and gay people and also ethnic minorities. It is also a practical political problem for the many women who are working diligently behind the scenes to try and ensure that the likely next government will listen to them, and to be in a position to hold their feet to the fire if they try and fudge the resolution to the trans issue.

As a movement, we have spectacularly failed to discuss either these sets of concerns in anything resembling a calm and sensible manner and have failed to extend good faith to each other over legitimate points of contention. That makes me personally very sad, and politically, I think we are all very much the poorer for it.

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teawamutu · 12/01/2024 11:43

Is this a bit of a mea culpa from JCJ as well? I'd be glad to think so, after that entire issue of the Radical Notion given over to criticising KJK.

We need to end the circular firing squad.

RethinkingLife · 12/01/2024 11:44

teawamutu · 12/01/2024 11:43

Is this a bit of a mea culpa from JCJ as well? I'd be glad to think so, after that entire issue of the Radical Notion given over to criticising KJK.

We need to end the circular firing squad.

I was thinking more in line with JCJ styling it as a golden bridge with a similar trajectory.

I'm certainly in no position to predict whether those to whom this golden bridge is signalled will find it relevant or adequate.

IamSarah · 12/01/2024 12:34

Maybe so. It has certainly made me reflect on how I have approached things.

There is a lot to learn from other women, especially those I disagree with.

OP posts:
DerekFaker · 12/01/2024 12:41

teawamutu · 12/01/2024 11:43

Is this a bit of a mea culpa from JCJ as well? I'd be glad to think so, after that entire issue of the Radical Notion given over to criticising KJK.

We need to end the circular firing squad.

I do hope so, otherwise this is a bit of a pisstake, isn't it?

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 13:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MidCentLangClegs · 12/01/2024 13:30

I spent a lot of time outside the Filia 2022 conference entrance on the phone to a solicitor (I was buying a house).
I was very much an invisible woman with boring hair so had the misfortune of hearing JCJ and her clan talk about KJK, constantly. Heard her name mentioned by that group at least 3 times a day. They weren't even trying to hide their bitterness.

teawamutu · 12/01/2024 13:32

IamSarah · 12/01/2024 12:34

Maybe so. It has certainly made me reflect on how I have approached things.

There is a lot to learn from other women, especially those I disagree with.

One of the many things I've learned as a result of all this: to stop categorising people as The Goodies and The Baddies based on their entirely legal and mainstream voting choices.

Look at what they actually believe and aim for, then decide if you can work together.

MidCentLangClegs · 12/01/2024 13:32

Should have explained better that JCJ and her gang seemed to spend most of the conference outside talking. At least they were there the 3,4,5 times I had to leave the building to take calls.

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 13:34

Gosh. That was deleted quickly. I'll rephrase.

Rather than write extremely lengthy word salads in response to push back about a South Coast feminist group posting laudatory pictures of the current "reasonable transsexual" du jour, it would save us all a lot of time if the person who posted the picture just explained their thinking, and how they square praising a man who uses women's spaces with their aims.

Or alternatively, and I realise this turns the usual gentry left approach on its head, they said "sorry wims I fucked up there, my bad".

RethinkingLife · 12/01/2024 13:36

teawamutu · 12/01/2024 13:32

One of the many things I've learned as a result of all this: to stop categorising people as The Goodies and The Baddies based on their entirely legal and mainstream voting choices.

Look at what they actually believe and aim for, then decide if you can work together.

"“Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who use to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with any more. It doesn't matter who the individual women are.” -- Andrea Dworkin"

Kara Dansky quoting Dworkin:

"I understand why some women seek the protection of right wing men. So did Andrea Dworkin, who wrote, “Right-wing women have surveyed the world; they find it a dangerous place…They are not wrong.” Numerous women in our movement have been physically attacked, threatened, and intimidated by left-wing men–and all too often, let down by the law enforcement and justice systems that should protect all citizens equally."

https://karadansky.substack.com/p/radical-feminists-working-with-the

Radical feminists “working with the right”

August 6, 2023 This post is being sent to all subscribers to this Substack. It is free and shareable. If you would like access to content that delves deeper into the movement to protect the sex-based rights of women and girls and to stop the abolition...

https://karadansky.substack.com/p/radical-feminists-working-with-the

MiffyTyfied · 12/01/2024 13:41

Now THAT I could understand!

pickledandpuzzled · 12/01/2024 13:42

Speaking as someone outside all the circles and only vaguely aware of these rifts…

I find it so easy to see how and when to ally or avoid people.

On an issue by issue basis, I agree with many individuals and organisations.
What Campaigner A does on certain issues is great. When he approaches women’s rights- reproductive rights etc- he’s not.

Why is that hard? Why can’t we ally on some areas and avoid each other on others?

teawamutu · 12/01/2024 13:42

Having read a few more of JCJ's posts I'm not sure exactly what she's trying to say here. But I'll unmute her (had done so to get a break from the constant sniping at KJK) and see how it goes.

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 13:43

I realise my post isn't all that clear in that it wasn't JCJ who posted the photo but I assume that's what's prompted this.

teawamutu · 12/01/2024 13:48

Excellent piece from Kara Dansky, Rethinking - thank you for sharing.

nothingcomestonothing · 12/01/2024 14:00

the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists.

Is that true? I've never had a Twi/X account so I don't know if that is a big thing, a bit of a thing or not even slightly a thing, but it does sound a lot like an accusation commonly used by TRAs, they we're all in the pay of 'the religious right' (which isn't even a thing in the UK). I'd be interested in the options of Twit/X users here.

GailBlancheViola · 12/01/2024 14:01

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 13:43

I realise my post isn't all that clear in that it wasn't JCJ who posted the photo but I assume that's what's prompted this.

It's clear to me, Tinsel, furthermore I don't trust either JCJ's or the poster of the photo's supposed Damascene contrition.

Spartacular · 12/01/2024 14:07

nothingcomestonothing · 12/01/2024 14:00

the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists.

Is that true? I've never had a Twi/X account so I don't know if that is a big thing, a bit of a thing or not even slightly a thing, but it does sound a lot like an accusation commonly used by TRAs, they we're all in the pay of 'the religious right' (which isn't even a thing in the UK). I'd be interested in the options of Twit/X users here.

No, it's nonsense. Extreme extrapolating from WPUK, JCJ et al.

Floisme · 12/01/2024 14:09

Thanks for the thread. I think it would be really great if this could be the start of something. That said, I think there will have to be some hard words exchanged first. I've also never had a magazine written about me so I'm not sure if it's really my call.

ResisterRex · 12/01/2024 14:15

It's a lot of words to find myself unconvinced about resubscribing.

Tinsel I thought you were clear (but I had watched this play out online).

Lost in all the words was this as nothing pointed out:

the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists

Baseless finger pointing. With more than a touch of "but I'm much better than this confected problem". Which is either a purity spiral, or as near as dammit.

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 14:19

Our refusal to be told what to think must be very confusing for the gentry left.

IamSarah · 12/01/2024 14:22

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 13:34

Gosh. That was deleted quickly. I'll rephrase.

Rather than write extremely lengthy word salads in response to push back about a South Coast feminist group posting laudatory pictures of the current "reasonable transsexual" du jour, it would save us all a lot of time if the person who posted the picture just explained their thinking, and how they square praising a man who uses women's spaces with their aims.

Or alternatively, and I realise this turns the usual gentry left approach on its head, they said "sorry wims I fucked up there, my bad".

Hi Tinsel,

I apologised directly to you on Twitter about posting that picture. Perhaps you didn't see it so here is a further apology.

Honestly, it was a rushed and thoughtless social media post at a busy event. I did not consider the impact this picture may have on trans widows who did not know the background to the event and that is on me.

The event was a mixed sex event discussing the impact and ethics of gender affirming care on children. It was a conversation between the writers Hannah Barnes and Helen Lewis. It was not a woman only event, nor was it a support space for women survivors, trans widows or any other space where single sex would be essential. It welcomed voices from all those affected by gender ideology including the very powerful testimony of a young detransitioner.

That said, it caused upset as some women disagreed with my decision to post a picture of two feminists with a trans identified male referring to them as ‘esteemed guests’. It was a poor choice of words and I appreciate their reasons behind it.

In the spirit of JCJ’s post and building bridges I hope that clears things up and sorry again the picture upset you.

OP posts:
TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 14:34

I find your apology pretty snide to be honest.

It is not a matter of personal upset OP and to claim that it is, is a trivialisation. I am also not claiming that it was a single sex event, or a support group. There is no misunderstanding on my part.

I am pointing out that inviting a man who uses women's spaces to an GC feminist event and then tweeting supportively about it afterwards undermines a campaign to retain women's single sex spaces. Furthermore it says to trans widows exactly who said feminist group consider worthy of esteem.

Frankly it feels like all the women who are not part of the gentry left aligned south coast soc fems are having the piss taken out of us, and the cash manipulated out of us.

Helleofabore · 12/01/2024 14:36

TinselAngel · 12/01/2024 13:34

Gosh. That was deleted quickly. I'll rephrase.

Rather than write extremely lengthy word salads in response to push back about a South Coast feminist group posting laudatory pictures of the current "reasonable transsexual" du jour, it would save us all a lot of time if the person who posted the picture just explained their thinking, and how they square praising a man who uses women's spaces with their aims.

Or alternatively, and I realise this turns the usual gentry left approach on its head, they said "sorry wims I fucked up there, my bad".

yes

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