A side thought ...

[LindorDoubleChoc]

I had a good chat with an acquaintace about her 26 year old son who recently seems to be dabbling in being female. She knows I am quite vocally GC and we have disagreed on the trans issue before. But she did say something a couple of months agp which really gave me a pause for thought.

So her DS is now dabbling in being "a woman". I said "why can't he just be gay?" but he isn't sexually attracted to men, he is sexually attracted to women so is leaning towards being a trans lesbian I think . His Mum says he is turned off by the toxic masculinity of men and doesn't like to be put in that bracket but prefers women on the whole, both sexually and as a SEX. For once I thought - maybe he's got a point. Of course I also thought "being a woman is not something you can opt into because you think women are better" but I think this is what he's trying to do.

So he is not a woman-hating TRA who would send "suck my lady dick" messages to anyone. He just thinks he doesn't like being a man and all it entails (probably not considered deeply all the major priviliges he's already had in his life but that's separate) other than having sex with women.

Is he still toxic and deluded? This is a man I've known from age 6 and I don't believe he is a bad person. He's just turned off by being male. So should he like it and lump it? He's an intelligent boy and will know that NAMALT. But then NAMALT is an insult now. Why has he gone to this other extreme and are there a lot of others like him?

Not so sure about Patrick Stewart.

"However, as his transition has evolved over the years, it's clear he has a sexist and sexually objectifying view of women. His personality has also warped and now his sensitivity has turned to defensive lashing out on perceived insults, his kindness has disappeared into self-absorption and his empathy is only one-sided "poor me." "

"It's being the very worst type of toxic man to ignore female boundaries, to expect women to be your support humans without their consent and then not even to have the grace to be honest about it."

All this is inevitable when you trying to be something you are not.

I think the OP has succumbed to the over generous flattery of her fellow women. It is manipulation.

Marcus Rashford! Bloody hell, how can I forget him..... or does playing football - even if you're also literally helping starving children - disqualify you from the 'non toxic male role-model' category?

Why, what's he done? He's not all macho and works against domestic violence.

Look, no-one's going to be a nice person all the time. No women are either. But there are plenty of basically decent men. Lots of men who've done wonderful things and show there are many different ways to be a good man.

My point is, saying that he doesn't want to 'be a man' because it's associated with toxicity is ignoring all the wonderful men now and throughout history who were gender non-conforming. It's an excuse to trample right on over those lesbian boundaries and lack of consent.

I've wondered if with, apparently, more younger, straight men thinking they can identify as women if there's a social contagion angle to Malaga airport.

I agree with pp, thinking 'woman' can be worn like an outfit is pretty toxic. Thinking they can be lesbians is even worse.

And btw women, ofck, and feminists to boot don't hate men

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4944649-we-dont-hate-men-science-sez

Probably porn, blaming toxic masculinity to make it palatable to his mum.

Another good man who is actively fighting toxic masculinity, child rape, porn (he took on Porn Hub and won some rule changes) and sex trafficking is the New York Times journalist Nicholas Kristoff. He's an excellent male role model who uses his media platform and writing gift to fight the worst of male violence against women.

OP, your friend's son needs better male role models.

I am aghast at pp saying there are few non-toxic role models. Pretty much all the men I know are excellent role models.

Your husbands?

Any men who wants to use a word lesbian for himself is toxic.

If the friend's son isn't comfortable being a man because he doesn't like the masculine stereotypes, I would expect him to declare himself as nonbinary.

I can understand why some young people want to opt out of the gender roles they feel expected to conform to.

I can understand why pretty much anybody would want to opt out of the gender roles they are expected to conform to. Gender roles are shit.

But the way to do that is by refusing to take part in - and fighting against - the roles and expectations and sterotypes (as feminists have been doing for centuries). Not by trying to opt into another sex (or even gender).

Bouffe I’m so sorry (and angry) to hear that happened to your family member and her friends. I am 100% opposed to men forcing their presence into lesbian society and it disgusts me that our wider society is allowing this to happen. It’s awful that she is having to arrange social events in secret and that TRAs feel entitled to disrupt, threaten and criticise her for doing so.

I promise you that the women on FWR are as angry and want to stop it happening as you are. Solidarity with your family member.

He's not "going after lesbians". He is exclusively sexually attracted to women. But doesn't "feel" male, whatever he means by that.

I'm going to leave this as I had hoped to talk further about an aspect of the whole identity debate that I'll admit I hadn't considered before. I can't be doing with the hostility though.

@LindorDoubleChoc I hope you haven’t left! I thought your post was fascinating and have been pondering it (rather than sleeping…) during the night because it does raise a very important point — which to me underscores some of the (to me baffling) confusion amongst young people. I know a young man who I fear is falling prey to gender confusion — sounds very similar to the young man you describe. Despite having lovely male friends and role models of men who are kind, sensitive, etc, he seeks friendships primarily with women as a reaction to “laddish” culture. He has not yet said he “identifies” as a woman but has given some suggestions he might do so — which to me would be preposterous because he is very “manly” in all the best possible ways. I happen to really like men — perhaps because I have been lucky in my father, brothers, husband and many male friends from university) — so am baffled as to why this young man seems to feel a need to identify with women rather than with “good” men.
sorry — I think I am waffling and probably not making sense. But I just wanted to say,OP, you have highlighted an interesting aspect of this very odd new world you g people are creating.

That typo was the first thing I noticed, was it an unconsciously deliberate I wonder?

All that.

So much wilful delusion involved in assuming such rubbish about both sexes.

I'm lucky to know many wonderful men - maybe this helps being a feminist because to me it's very apparent how possible it is to be a good man.

Which reveals that it's a choice to rape or abuse or mimic or badly treat women.

Funny how a belief that feelings are innate and unchangeable apparently goes hand in hand with a belief that the material world is entirely changeable and choosable.

Teenagers and young people always look for an identity and a group to join - whether it's through sport or music or something else. I think boys today are being offered this new type of group 'transwoman' via the internet and of course it's the quiet, gentle ones who don't feel they easily fit in who are most likely to fall prey. But unlike most other groups, this is toxic. I'm sure many start out being lovely and just a bit naive but once in this group they have to engage in some incredibly problematic behaviour to fit in and their attitudes will change.

I think, OP, that when faced with the mother and her claims, my first question would not have been “why can’t he just be gay?”It would have been “is he using women’s spaces?”

There’s the line.

Is he effectively trying to be a super feminine male and expressing himself in what he feels to be feminine ways, avoiding using women’s spaces out of respect, but simply changing what he calls himself because he has bought into gender ideology?

Or is he (as seems more likely to me) parroting a plausible excuse so he can override boundaries and invade women’s spaces?

My suspicion would be that it’s the latter. I agree with Tinsel in that I think he’s telling his mum something she wants to hear, rather than the truth.

There's lots of non-toxic men out there. The violent criminals take over the news. The toxic, abusive ones take over this site but the majority of men are nice, normal people.

I fundamentally disagree with men escaping into "womanhood" as a refuge from masculinity. Women are not support humans for men who don't like other men. We are not a refuge for men.

If men don't like the way men act or think then they should bloody well fix it. It's not up to women to solve men's problems. We're pretty busy trying to work out how to fix our own.

The mum of this man is of course sympathetic to his pov, as are you OP, you've known him since he was a child. Tbh I would put money on some kind of transvestism/AGP being involved. Being distressed at toxic masculinity does not typically lead men to put on dresses.

It's just breathtaking narcissism and entitlement to just decide you can be a trans lesbian (or whatever) and not spend 30 seconds considering the feelings of lesbians. Well, of course, maybe he has considered and decided he doesn't care about their consent.

He appears to have absolutely no capacity for empathy at all nor see women as fully human. This seems to be a feature not a bug with men who transition.

I'd recommend reading the transwidows thread, and it might be useful for this man's mother too.

It’s the TRA version of the nice guy isbt it

“I’d never be mean and aggressive and nasty, I’d never send abusive messages and shout suck my dick. Im
a nice guy, I love women, women are so much better than men. Also suck my dick.”

it’s still the same level of male entitlement and only seeing women through the male gaze as support humans not real people.

Yes, I agree with pp that this young man is probably laying on the flattery about women pretty thick and his mum and the OP quite naturally want to think the best of him so they are inclined to believe him - maybe he even wants to believe himself, but that doesn’t make any of it true or acceptable.

@LindorDoubleChoc i have just re-read your OP and am unsure what your friend means about her son. Is he identifying as a woman as in dressing like a woman and trying to “present” as a woman? Or does he identify as a woman as in being a feminist and feeling uncomfortable with “laddish” behaviour?

Just imagine if someone went onto a BAME chat group and talked about how her friend's son identified as BAME even though he was white. And how lovely that was and it was because of a lack of decent white role models.

Then the natural reactions were described as 'hostility'

I fail to see how identifying as a lesbian if you're a man is any less offensive.

I think the idea that women are inherently 'better' then men is damaging to both sexes. Women are human beings and as such we are as prone to flaws as men are.

For sure there are differences in behaviour, e.g. less propensity for violence and sexual crime we don't fully understand. We are still fully human so please ask your friend's son to stop treating us as plaster cast saints. It's insulting to decent men and also an image that no woman can live up to.

As for your feelings towards this person, it's perfectly possible to have a soft spot for someone and think their attitudes and behaviour are delusional, entitled and predatory.