A side thought ...

[LindorDoubleChoc]

I had a good chat with an acquaintace about her 26 year old son who recently seems to be dabbling in being female. She knows I am quite vocally GC and we have disagreed on the trans issue before. But she did say something a couple of months agp which really gave me a pause for thought.

So her DS is now dabbling in being "a woman". I said "why can't he just be gay?" but he isn't sexually attracted to men, he is sexually attracted to women so is leaning towards being a trans lesbian I think . His Mum says he is turned off by the toxic masculinity of men and doesn't like to be put in that bracket but prefers women on the whole, both sexually and as a SEX. For once I thought - maybe he's got a point. Of course I also thought "being a woman is not something you can opt into because you think women are better" but I think this is what he's trying to do.

So he is not a woman-hating TRA who would send "suck my lady dick" messages to anyone. He just thinks he doesn't like being a man and all it entails (probably not considered deeply all the major priviliges he's already had in his life but that's separate) other than having sex with women.

Is he still toxic and deluded? This is a man I've known from age 6 and I don't believe he is a bad person. He's just turned off by being male. So should he like it and lump it? He's an intelligent boy and will know that NAMALT. But then NAMALT is an insult now. Why has he gone to this other extreme and are there a lot of others like him?

have a lesbian in the family and she's recently had to call off a pre-Christmas lesbian event because somehow, despite all publicity being discreetly handled and trusted contacts only, word's got out among the local TRAs and there are threats of pickets and men invading and cries of transphobia and worse all over social media. It's made me extremely aware of how no one recognises how particularly tough this is for lesbians.

That is truly awful, but I think you are being unfair to the women on this thread. As Binturong said, people were engaging with the overarching issue of a man thinking he was somehow a woman, it doesn't mean we don't care that it's homophobic. In many other threads on this board the discussion has been had many times. Plenty of women here are actually lesbians. People will engage how they want to. You (and someone else) raised the issue of the inherent homophobia, that's good. Others will respond agreeing with you. Don't jump on people within a few posts shaming them for not posting in a way you approve of.

Yes I think this category of young men is less acknowledged than the groups of lesbian/autistic/abused etc. girls wanting to escape societal misogyny and older AGP men. I really don’t see a non-toxic masculinity or any good role models for boys growing up now. They watch porn from a young age which instructs them in violence and domination over women. I think some of these young people are on some level trying to opt out of their oppressor/oppressed gender roles. It’s totally misguided, offensive and further entrenches those stereotypes though.

YY.

Yeah, I know. And lesbians, who are bearing the brunt of this, get subsumed by straight women. But this guy isn't looking for relationships with straight women. He's going after lesbians.

Perhaps you have to know lesbians to understand what's happening increasingly. There's always been the odd bloke trying to get into the lesbian disco or come along on the lesbian walk (although because that involves boots and trousers it doesn't appeal to most.) Yes, it's a women's problem but it's lesbian society and community that are under the most aggressive and targeted attack. I bet the men identifying as women and joining the WI aren't really expecting to find women who'll have sex with them there. Too often men turning up at lesbian events are.

Don't jump on people within a few posts shaming them for not posting in a way you approve of.

Just because I don't have a name you recognise doesn't mean I haven't posted here on a thousand occasions in the past. Not a great look, Erish, jumping on someone you assume is new and telling what they can and can't say.

It's made me extremely aware of how no one recognises how particularly tough this is for lesbians.

It is recognised on these boards. There are regular threads about it, as well as plenty of posts raising the issue within wider threads. As @Ereshkigalangcleg says, a lot of posters here are lesbians and many (most? all?) of the rest do know some.

If he does look for relationships with straight women, he'll expect them to pretend that they are lesbians. It's abusive to expect women to pretend that their male partner is a woman and it's abusive to make women live a lie about their sexuality.

In some respects women, in general, are better, though I could certainly show you exceptions. I haven’t felt any need to try to become one, or to copy how women look. I can try to emulate the behaviours I admire in some women, and the behaviours I admire in some men. None of that changes the fact that I am, for better or worse, a man.

Not a great look, Erish, jumping on someone you assume is new and telling what they can and can't say.

I have no idea how new you are. Nor do I care. I don't take kindly to being hectored or scolded by other posters in general. You are unreasonable in expecting people to post in exactly the same way you want. I was posting about one aspect of the OP, the claim that it's a retreat from masculinity. You know me as a poster, seemingly. Then I'm sure you also know that I agree that men identifying as lesbians are homophobic. Climb down off your high horse.

Im not really a fan of the term toxic masculinity. But its a good way to describe man redefining 'woman' to include themselves.

If you've posted here a thousand times, why are you acting as if no-one here knows what trans-identifying males are doing to lesbian communities? Why are you acting as if you're the first woman on the board to know a lesbian?

It's great that you are suddenly aware of how lesbian-only events have been forced underground, but why are you assuming it must be brand new information to everyone here?

Do you not think many of us are here because we've already experienced that phenomenon, whether first- or second-hand, long before this Christmas?

Ignoring, just for the moment, the horrendous misogyny that he is claiming to identify out of, I do have a bridge for sale if you or your friend is interested.

I also think that young people who are steeped in the gender stuff really don't see the contempt involved in identifying into the opposite sex (especially MtF) because they're so divorced from reality. In that world biological sex is irrelevant and what matters is the gender identity that everyone can choose freely. The notion of a power hierarchy or experience of womanhood being based on your sexed body just doesn't compute. I had a discussion with a man who asked me why can't a transwoman be a feminist? 🙄It's just a totally different way of thinking.

I agree @thedankness and I think that a lot of these young people are mainly interacting with the world via social media and playing games online with others. Which makes the idea of identifying as a different person more realistic for them.

I listened to an interesting podcast with Caitlyn Moran talking about her book Wjat About Men. Being a young, white, especially WC man isn’t without its problems and there are conversations to be had with our boys for sure.
I agree that being a woman isn’t something you can opt into - nature doesn’t work like that - , but I can understand why some young people want to opt out of the gender roles they feel expected to conform to.

Because that's what jumped out at me: the OP apparently a little amused at the idea of this young man solving his issues by becoming one of the men who are calling my niece a hateful bigot and worse on social media and planning to prevent her event happening if they're not included. And the first three responses not even picking up on the lesbian angle reference. As far as I can see, NeighbourhoodWatch has been the only person who has, apart from me.

I'm not 'suddenly aware' of the lesbian issue.

But do keep pecking at me and belittling me if that's what you want.

I don't hang around much with men who display the traits of Toxic Masculinity ("man up" "boys don't cry" "got to fuck as many chicks as possible but marry a virgin" and all the testosterone fuelled willly waving that often goes on. I was in the army - i have had my fill of all that bollocks)

If a man or boy wants to identify out of Toxic Masculinity - then don't be Andrew Tate. Be someone like Brian Cox or Patrick Stewart or one of the millions of other men in the world who aren't complete and utter cunty twats.

I am rather chortling at the idea that a poster thinks that FWR has been ignoring how toxic the whole trans issue is to lesbians. What with many many posters over a long long time pointing out that men wanting to fuck lesbians has been A Thing for ever, and whether it was to "turn them straight" (oh the 70s and 80s must have been a fun time for lesbians, amirite?) or because Transbians are a real thing and the cotton ceiling is transphobic, wah wah wah.

The bottom line is: you can't change sex. Some people want, need, prefer sex segregated spaces, and that is fine and good. (men as well as women) Trans people can bloody well find their own spaces, and if anyone else wants to join them? all well and good.

Then re-read the thread. On the first page alone, DuckDragon and Luckydog7 also commented on the lesbian angle. (I am NeighbourhoodWatch, so not sure why you're talking about me in the third person.)

Other people wanted to tackle the OP on the unspoken philosophical underpinnings she was accepting. People are allowed to choose what they want to discuss.

And seriously, you've been extremely belittling yourself.

What a load of sexist bullshit.

I guess you can congratulate yourself for convincing young men that they are destined to be shit due to their sex.

Because that's what jumped out at me: the OP apparently a little amused at the idea of this young man solving his issues by becoming one of the men who are calling my niece a hateful bigot and worse on social media and planning to prevent her event happening if they're not included.

Then criticise the OP, not other posters who know full well that it is homophobic and what happens with lesbians being harassed by males, and have discussed this many times before on the board, but didn't get the chance to say on this thread before you jumped on them to shame them for not mentioning it in their one or two posts on the thread.

I don't think the OP is amused, she's just not considered it in this way before, and she knows this man so she's making allowances for him, to her he's not as terrible as other TRAs so maybe it's less harmful. It's misguided, yes, as most people have said. I hope your niece has support from friends. These men are awful. Can she contact LGBA?

I assume it's due to the porn and social sites he visits. Be very skeptical, OP.

YY, I imagine most of these men are getting social reinforcement via Reddit, discord groups, TRA Twitter etc. And those spaces are highly misogynistic. It's like hanging out in the manosphere.

It's being the very worst type of toxic man to ignore female boundaries, to expect women to be your support humans without their consent and then not even to have the grace to be honest about it.

He can fuck off with his 'trans-lesbian' homophobic bullshit.

And also he can fuck off with the 'there are no non-toxic male role models'. Yes there are, there are literally bloody LOADS of decent men. If he hasn't encountered any, he really hasn't tried very hard at all (too busy searching the internet I expect).

Here are a few just off the top of my head: Patrick Stewart, James Dreyfus, Lin Manuel Miranda, politics aside (which I know is divisive) Barack Obama treats women with respect and isn't all macho, Ben Cooper KC (should have put him first obvs), Ronan Farrow, Harry Millar, ....my Dad, my next-door neighbour, so very many decent men.

All the men who manage to NOT trample women's boundaries by NOT using women's spaces. I.e. the majority.

Sorry but I think you're letting your affection for this person get in the way, he really shouldn't be bothering lesbians, or thinking he can just become a woman.
Why doesn't he just be a non-toxic male ? I agree there's not many role models out there, but he could figure it out.

"Nice guy" is an MRA cliche for a reason.

This, and they are very young. Teenage boys are young and can be vulnerable just like teen girls who get sucked into this stuff.

The fact that adults are telling them this stuff is real mens they believe it. As much as many teens think they are great counter-cultural critical thinkers, the opposite is usually the case. They are overly trusting and don't question enough, their critical faculties aren't fully developed and in many cases they've not had the development they should have in their education..

Even the teens who are being being drawn into AGP behaviour are in need of real guidance, rather than idiots telling them that yeah, they really are hot lesbians.