A side thought ...

[LindorDoubleChoc]

I had a good chat with an acquaintace about her 26 year old son who recently seems to be dabbling in being female. She knows I am quite vocally GC and we have disagreed on the trans issue before. But she did say something a couple of months agp which really gave me a pause for thought.

So her DS is now dabbling in being "a woman". I said "why can't he just be gay?" but he isn't sexually attracted to men, he is sexually attracted to women so is leaning towards being a trans lesbian I think . His Mum says he is turned off by the toxic masculinity of men and doesn't like to be put in that bracket but prefers women on the whole, both sexually and as a SEX. For once I thought - maybe he's got a point. Of course I also thought "being a woman is not something you can opt into because you think women are better" but I think this is what he's trying to do.

So he is not a woman-hating TRA who would send "suck my lady dick" messages to anyone. He just thinks he doesn't like being a man and all it entails (probably not considered deeply all the major priviliges he's already had in his life but that's separate) other than having sex with women.

Is he still toxic and deluded? This is a man I've known from age 6 and I don't believe he is a bad person. He's just turned off by being male. So should he like it and lump it? He's an intelligent boy and will know that NAMALT. But then NAMALT is an insult now. Why has he gone to this other extreme and are there a lot of others like him?

I think you hit the nail on the head with "being a woman is not something you can opt into because you think women are better" . Why not just be a better, non toxic straight man? Should be hugely attractive!

Essentially he's buying into the stereotypes, both for men (only toxic masculinity) and women (be kind) and failing to see that he can be any type of man he wants, just not a woman.

His Mum says he is turned off by the toxic masculinity of men

This is where the logic has failed. You don't need to be a man to be masculine, nor masculine to be a man. It is toxic-ly masculine people who presumably put him off, not male people. He's falling for the same sexist assumptions he's trying to escape.

To some extent, I'm sympathetic - if you think society will continue to treat you in one of two ways based on your sex, and you'd prefer to be treated the "other" way, then it's superficially an attractive option.

but prefers women on the whole, both sexually and as a SEX.

This doesn't sound that far from the acronym...

a couple of months agp

Typo of the year!

On your quandry, he has been convinced that being a woman is a costume, so that is automatically a red flag.

Toxic masculinity as a term exists as a contrast to positive masculinity. Being a man isn't toxic, but some behaviours are. Women can be toxic too, and instead of co-opting womanhood for his own gain he should be modelling better behaviours for his own sex.

Insofar as he thinks it's okay for him to colonise womanhood, and his idea that 'being a woman' is something to do with presentation and not biology, and that he seems to expect women to quietly accept this (which is just the kind of imperialist, colonialist, you'll-do-what-I-say behaviour exemplified by many generations of men) he's behaving just like the kind of men he deplores.

There's a quote doing the rounds on Twitter:
It’s time we stopped quibbling about the hypothetical lovely transwoman quietly using women’s changing rooms and just stated the obvious: lack of respect for women’s boundaries is the single most dangerous quality a man can possess.

How dare anyone, you or him or his mum, think it even vaguely okay that he looks for relationships with lesbians. Lesbians don't want your friend's son trying to push his way into their single-sex events and assuming that lesbians will want to speak to him, let alone have a relationship with him. Women aren't support humans.

Yes lol at agp! silly me.

I'm going to reserve a tiny place in my heart for young men who don't like the whole mantle of being male after this chat with his Mum. Because I can see his point - women are better, we are always reinforcing this idea that women are better, for men who agree that women are better it can be hard to be male. I guess.

Call me old fashioned, but I believe you can respect women and be a nice man. It really doesn't have to go any further than that.

Oh Bouffe, please. If you think I am some kind of TRA apologist do feel free to have a look back on my posting history in this topic and in my previous names A580Hojas and NextPhoneWontBeSamsung.

All I am saying is there is something here that I hadn't considered before.

There are plenty of men who do not take part in "toxic masculinity". Does he not know any? Can he not imagine such a thing?

I’ve yet to read a case that doesn’t scream either toxic gender stereotypes or agp.
Any man wanting to identify as a lesbian is, IMO, a toxic man.

It sounds like his issue is with gender stereotypes - he should be able to present himself as he wants to. However, by going down this route he is adhering to toxic male standards, rather than standing up and being his own man, which is far more attractive than pretending to be a woman.

They're not very visible are they? I honestly believe (because I am one of those women) that most women think most men are toxic. NAMALT is always dismissed.

I think you hit the nail on the head with "being a woman is not something you can opt into because you think women are better"

That's just the reality. It's not an option for men to be women. He's a man, because he's male. It's not a personal judgement on him. Men can be anything they want, that is within their ability. Being a woman is not, it's as simple as that. His motivation is largely irrelevant. He's no more or less a woman than any of these males.

I think what has happened to you is the classic “I’ve met a nice transperson therefore it’s all fine, there’s nothing to worry about” syndrome.

I would suggest your friends son does in fact hate women because no man who respected women would think they can opt in to womanhood, he doesn’t see women as fully human, he sees us as a costume.

This generation are messed up. I thought my lot were bad. Privileged idiots. I prescribe a digital detox for a year and a life purpose. Travelling, studying or a proper career.

It's rather black and white thinking.

I don't like other men. I don't want to be like them.

Ergo I'll go and be a woman.

Why not support him to accept that he's a different kind of man, and that's great, and the more different kinds of men there are in all their diversity, the better things will be regarding toxic masculinity? That is a long term achievable goal where realistically, however hard he tries to chase it, womanhood just isn't something men can break into and own. It takes being born female and that's it. The most he can be is a man enacting female perceptions of what being a woman might be like from a man's point of view.

Side growl: why is it that any problems men have a sex class requires dumping labour on women to fix for them? As opposed to them cleaning their own house?

women are better, we are always reinforcing this idea that women are better, for men who agree that women are better it can be hard to be male. I guess.

what all women?? All women are better than all men? How can that possibly be true?

i really dislike the idea that all women are wafting around the world being better, kinder, more empathetic, nicer etc than men

that's just reducing women to a set of stereotypes

Seriously? There is no "toxic masculinity" in my current circle of family and friends. Obviously I have come across men like this, but they are very much in the minority of men that I have known.

He's just turned off by being male. So should he like it and lump it?

I doubt most people see him as anything other than male, whatever they actually say, so he hasn't got a choice.

I think you'll find that on a feminist forum you'll find absolutely no sympathy for any male that suffers from gender dysphoria.

There’s no evidence he suffers from gender dysphoria tho. There’s nothing about being uncomfortable with his body but about being uncomfortable with the toxic behaviour of other men. That’s not gender dysphoria

There's a radical difference between sympathy and enablement.

Also between reason and excuse.

I think you'll find that on a feminist forum you'll find absolutely no sympathy for any male that suffers from gender dysphoria.

He doesn't like the men he's mixing with or he sees around and he thinks he's making a rational decision. What has that to do with gender dysphoria?

I think that calling himself a lesbian is rather a demonstration of toxic masculinity. Possessive, and entitled boundary pushing as well as massively homophobic and misogynistic.

I don't like other men. I don't want to be like them.

Ergo I'll go and be a woman.

A surprising number of these men, that don't fantasise about themselves as a woman, have this logic, without having any particular affinity with being a woman. They seem to see men as one thing, they see them in a negative way, and if they don't directly identify with that they must be a woman, as if it's an empty, neutral identity they can claim and in some way they can not be a man. Which is nonsense.

If every male that thinks they don't want to be tainted by toxic masculinity starts pretending they aren't male, then they are just contributing to toxic masculinity being a male thing that keeps perpetuating itself.

When can't men just be decent men?

I would think he is severely lowering his chances of finding a woman to have a relationship with if he presents as female. So that is an unusual strategy.

I would also imagine, like most people, he would not discuss intimate details of his sex life with his parents. So I am not sure she would fully understand the whole picture.

I do know a couple of men who are very into being a manly man. Many people constantly thought they were gay but they are very definitely not.