A side thought ...

[LindorDoubleChoc]

I had a good chat with an acquaintace about her 26 year old son who recently seems to be dabbling in being female. She knows I am quite vocally GC and we have disagreed on the trans issue before. But she did say something a couple of months agp which really gave me a pause for thought.

So her DS is now dabbling in being "a woman". I said "why can't he just be gay?" but he isn't sexually attracted to men, he is sexually attracted to women so is leaning towards being a trans lesbian I think . His Mum says he is turned off by the toxic masculinity of men and doesn't like to be put in that bracket but prefers women on the whole, both sexually and as a SEX. For once I thought - maybe he's got a point. Of course I also thought "being a woman is not something you can opt into because you think women are better" but I think this is what he's trying to do.

So he is not a woman-hating TRA who would send "suck my lady dick" messages to anyone. He just thinks he doesn't like being a man and all it entails (probably not considered deeply all the major priviliges he's already had in his life but that's separate) other than having sex with women.

Is he still toxic and deluded? This is a man I've known from age 6 and I don't believe he is a bad person. He's just turned off by being male. So should he like it and lump it? He's an intelligent boy and will know that NAMALT. But then NAMALT is an insult now. Why has he gone to this other extreme and are there a lot of others like him?

It seems to me even worse.

A white person demanding to be recognised as black is not expecting (and backed by a political lobby demanding) that anyone else must validate him by providing their body and unpaid sex work.

There are plenty of bi women who are attracted to men of all gender identities, there are (waiting for the inevitable arrival) women who will call themselves 'lesbian' because they see it as an identity to choose and who will happily (say they) date male people of various identities including TW. The issue will be that a woman who says no, she is homosexual thanks, exclusively attracted to biological females only, and can perceive a male in any presentation and does not want to have sexual relationships or romantic relationships with anyone other than a biological female? Will be told she is wrong, a sexual racist, and she must 'learn to cope' with straight sex rather than deny her body to a man who wants to use it for his validation and will have his chosen sense of self jarred by her expecting to be treated as an equal human being as opposed to a walking sex toy. Or say to want sex to be something she enjoys as opposed to provides through gritted teeth with tolerance of something unpleasant being the most she's supposed to hope for.

No other group is required to not only pretend that men are something other than men when they say so but get their clothes off and validate said men in their identity by showing nudity, peeing in earshot/close presence, accepting intimate processes regardless of distress such as breast exams, smears and post rape examinations, and provide their body for sex. Only women. And especially the women who say no, because forcing access to them is the golden ticket of validation of chosen identity.

And as pp says: when you see the men and their women enablers descend on female homosexuals trying to meet, because how dare those women gatekeep their bodies from men wanting to use them? You realise how sociopathic and evil this is.

Why anyone would indulge a man in treating women like this and make excuses defeats me. Sympathy can only go so far before you are actively enabling.

'why this young man seems to feel a need to identify with women rather than with “good” men.'

That's the question to ask.

So you and his mum have brought him up to believe that men are awful and women are much better? No wonder he doesn’t fancy being male.

Could you not work to redress that? Apologise for giving that impression, assure him
men can be fabulous and he has that opportunity! He can be an amazing young man who respects and values women.

He can’t be a woman, and he mustn’t ape womanhood. Him swanning around ‘being a girl’ is like you swaggering around in low hanging jeans, swigging beer and belching because you don’t want sexist people to patronise or overlook you for being a woman

This.

All he's doing by trying to be a "lesbian" is massively limiting his potential dating pool.

Isn't this pretty much the same argument as used by our recent visitor - the one who, before flouncing, posted across multiple boards, claiming women were nicer people and that we should be flattered?

Some of us have been outraged for about a decade about men pretending to be lesbians.

The one point that the OP is making is the one that is being responded to.

That was the side thought. If I raged against every single post regarding men and their vile encroachment onto lesbians I'd never get anything else done. As it is relentless. And going for lesbians and not just straight women is part of the thrill for them.

Can you give him a copy of Robert Webbs book? He's a good role model for men that don't like all that comes with masculinity.

I have a DH who gets on better with women, female friends all through life, close to his sisters, happy in his own skin. Similarly my DS (10) has a gang of friends which is 4 girls and one other boy.

He will be much closer friends with women if he isn't making himself the centre of things, making them play along. Can he maybe join some hobby groups or something to make friends, then they'll have a common interest beyond gender?

Op, I could see your point had he been 14/15/16/17.. There is a point at which teenage boys are treated quite differently as they venture out into the world than girls and it can be a shock to the system when they've been treated roughly the same as children up to that point.
Maybe combine that with not quite fitting in with your male peers and trying to work out why and you might get a teenage boy who is confused for a time.
The cruelest thing society does is let these young people think they can opt in to the other sex.

However he's 27 and has had time to move through that phase.
Surely if he doesn't want to be one of those men, he also doesn't want to be one of those different men who say they're women and go into women's spaces and scare them.

He might think he "doesn't feel male," but he can't "not feel male" because "male" isn't a feeling.

I'd guess he is AGP but it much easier to tell his mum that 'I want to be a woman cos women are nicer', than 'I am sexually aroused at the thought of being a woman's and I want to wear women's clothes all the time now '

point 2) women are not inherently better than men, there are toxic women as well as toxic men it just presents in different ways. There are lots of fantastic, honourable men who we need in this world. He could be one of those.

3. If he thought men were dicks, you think he might just try and be a good man to women. It doesn't take very long to realise that the trans movement is hugely detrimental to women, and a super toxic environment for men. It is entirely about eroding women's boundaries. So I don't think he can be that motivated by his care, not really.

My conclusion: Sorry, I don't buy it. It doesn't add up and is far more likely he is motivated by sexual gratification than a seriously misplaced attempt at being a better person.

And what he feels is ‘feeling like a woman’ can only be ‘feeling like how a male fantasises what it would feel like to be a woman’

I agree with this.
In addition in certain areas of youth organisations there are some amazing opportunities for girls and "people with diverse gender identities".
It pushes the benefit of not being a male who is trying to get comfortable in their own skin as a male even further.

There are non-misogynist men who work hard on treating the women in their lives as fully human. He could try to be one of those. Saying ‘I’m a man who challenges toxic masculinity’ can be powerful, rather than ‘I hate toxic masculinity so I’m going to dabble in (stereotypes of) womanhood.’ In any case, he can’t change his sex, no matter what cosmetic changes he makes. And if he goes ahead, he really shouldn’t want lesbians to date or sleep with him because he’s a ‘fellow lesbian.’

Yep. 2nd wave feminism in a nutshell

I also wonder which parts of womanhood he identifies into (slinky clothes, make up, ladies toilets) and which he ignores (the drudgery work of keeping a household and family running)

Theres a growing idea that feminists are responsible for men identifying as women and i think this mans attitude reflects this.

As women are more financially independent and not wanting to have families, the male role has diminished. Women highlighting male violence has put a spotlight onto male behaviour. So men are seen as superfluous and antisocial in a female world.

So they want to be women, be the sex that is more respected.

This, of course, is utter nonsense. Its men at best trying to intellectualise, at worst telling women 'you made me do it', when its a phenomenon thats been around for years, since before women even had the vote.

Whats shocking to me, is how young these men are wanting to perform 'woman' in public. Im sure it used to be a middle aged thing - dressing up privately and in clubs satisfied them while young, but as they aged, they needed perform in public. Or maybe i didnt see younger men because they were subtler about it?

Now these men have gone from 'i want to try on some knickers' to 'i going to the supermarket in fishnets' to 'everyone needs to address me as Miss' in a matter if weeks, when it used to take years.

I think the only thing thats changed is mothers having to deal with their 18 year old sons doing it when previously they werent aware until their sons were middle aged.

It doesn't take very long to realise that the trans movement is hugely detrimental to women

I think it depends what people have consumed.

I don't know how ubiquitous the images of tra's from the protests are and if young people are likely to come across them if they're dipping their toe in the water of "thinking about your gender identity", which seems to be something that's sold to young people as being important and desirable in schools and colleges.

I would hope that getting in quick and showing them this other side might make them rethink before any subsequent brain washing can occur.

I wasn't aware of it until I looked beneath the surface but that was in 2020 and it must be easier to stumble across now but thinking back to being outside the bubble before I knew better I used to think that trans women were the most oppressed based on the one very gentle but ultimately very whiny trans women I knew, because that was the only messaging I'd come across.

There are so many 'right on' places that have mixed sex toilets in our area that trying to explain that despite the labelling, a young man who wants to be a woman really needs to stick with the loo marked "urinals, basins, toilet cubicles' rather than the one that says 'basins, toilet cubicles' could be a pretty hard battle to fight. Especially if you're having to tread carefully with a close relative who could easily be lost to this madness completely if they don't retain their family connections which are hopefully their way back to sanity.

Yes it does feel like that doesn’t it?

”it just occurred to me that some men appropriating womanhood, trampling their boundaries, treating women as sex fulfilment servants, and demanding access to their spaces are actually men trying to be nice. Bet you hadn’t thought of that! Gotcha!”

Hes only a trans lesbian if straight women who want to have sex with him count as lesbians too. Which somewhat contradicts the meaning of lesbian. Obviously he can't have a lesbian relationship with a lesbian - lesbians are HOMOsexual. Kid wants to learn some Greek.

I mean if he wants to be feminine (not female, he can't be that) presenting enby then he could try that I guess?

But yeah. My dh is not at all toxic. We need more non toxic men to go and fly the flag for respecting womens boundaries.

Maybe he needs some better (less toxic) friends?

I can remember my mother saying 40 years ago about Jan Morris "Why would anyone be a man if they could choose?"

Sounds like he doesn't want to be a Bad Man. The obvious choice then isn't to opt into being a woman, but instead to be a Good Man. One of those who treat women with respect and as human beings, not a costume to try on or a character to emulate.

Why would anyone be a woman if they could choose?