A side thought ...

[LindorDoubleChoc]

I had a good chat with an acquaintace about her 26 year old son who recently seems to be dabbling in being female. She knows I am quite vocally GC and we have disagreed on the trans issue before. But she did say something a couple of months agp which really gave me a pause for thought.

So her DS is now dabbling in being "a woman". I said "why can't he just be gay?" but he isn't sexually attracted to men, he is sexually attracted to women so is leaning towards being a trans lesbian I think . His Mum says he is turned off by the toxic masculinity of men and doesn't like to be put in that bracket but prefers women on the whole, both sexually and as a SEX. For once I thought - maybe he's got a point. Of course I also thought "being a woman is not something you can opt into because you think women are better" but I think this is what he's trying to do.

So he is not a woman-hating TRA who would send "suck my lady dick" messages to anyone. He just thinks he doesn't like being a man and all it entails (probably not considered deeply all the major priviliges he's already had in his life but that's separate) other than having sex with women.

Is he still toxic and deluded? This is a man I've known from age 6 and I don't believe he is a bad person. He's just turned off by being male. So should he like it and lump it? He's an intelligent boy and will know that NAMALT. But then NAMALT is an insult now. Why has he gone to this other extreme and are there a lot of others like him?

Same kind of energy as men who cat call women in the street saying we should be flattered.

3) If he thought men were dicks, you think he might just try and be a good man to women. It doesn't take very long to realise that the trans movement is hugely detrimental to women, and a super toxic environment for men. It is entirely about eroding women's boundaries. So I don't think he can be that motivated by his care, not really.

Exactly. At the very least there's huge cognitive dissonance going on.

@MargotBamborough "Why would anyone be a woman if they could choose?"

God, I would! Every time!

it’s still the same level of male entitlement and only seeing women through the male gaze as support humans not real people.

Exactly.

I don't particularly want to be a man because I have no frame of reference for being a man, I know that I can never be one, and there are things about my lived experience of womanhood that I am very grateful for.

But objectively, men are more privileged, are they not?

Who would want to be less privileged?

Men who think they want to be women have no real idea of what it would be like. Their ideas are based on their own male views of women and girls and often influenced by particular women or girls they have known, plus porn, media etc.

Influenced by porn, media, more porn, TikTok, porn and fantasies about particular women or girls they have known… plus porn.

Apart from young boys in school; they are influenced by men who are influenced by porn.

I think you'll find that on a feminist forum you'll find absolutely no sympathy for any male that suffers from gender dysphoria

Males with 'gender' dysphoria are just that. Not being comfortable in your body doesn't mean you are the opposite sex.

Funny how the neighbours son says he is 'turned off' by toxic masculinity. Does that mean he is 'turned on' by being feminine?

Perhaps his mother should check his internet history.

Same! I bloody love being a woman!

I feel immensely privileged to have borne children.

So, it probably depends how you frame it.

I have huge sympathy for anyone who has any sort of dysphoria. It must be hell.

"Feeling privileged" is a state of mind. Being privileged - socially, economically etc. - is a fact.

I think being a man comes with it's own challenges, same as being a woman.

I just wish young people weren't naive enough to think they they can identify out of them.

Especially not into an identity that comes with more, and bigger challenges.

If he continues down this route he won't be a parent; he will have the as yet unacknowledged health problems associated with taking a lifetime of cross-sex hormones, he will have a drastically reduced chance of finding partners, and a drastically higher chance of mental health issues.

@Grimchmas "I think being a man comes with it's own challenges"

I think being a decent man does. I don't think just being a man does.

Hmm. I think it's probably a lot more complicated than either of us can put into a short forum post, @CurlewKate.

I don't think even men who opt for the red pill/incel life find life to be without challenges - they're just different ones.

(Please nobody mistake this as sympathy for men who chose to be terrible people)

Well. So do I, but this is a very personal thing. I know men who wish they could have had the opportunity to bear children and women who would gladly outsource the whole thing to their husband if they could.

But take childbearing out of the equation for a minute. Let's say you didn't want children or you knew you were completely infertile and had zero chance of bearing children. Would you still want to be a woman or would you prefer to be a man and have male privilege?

Because the way I see it, bearing children is the only thing women can do which men can't do, and although it may bring us joy, we also suffer discrimination, disadvantage and hardship because of it. We can neither enjoy male privilege nor opt out of our own sex based discrimination by identifying as a man. Since no one can change sex and no one has a choice as to whether they are male or female, there's not much point in considering whether you would rather be the opposite of what we are; all we can do is work towards equality.

Trans women will never bear children because they don't have the right anatomy. So why would they want to "be" women in any other respect? What is the advantage of being a woman, once you take childbearing out of the equation?

As for having dysphoria, honestly I think it's neither here nor there in the discussion of what it means to be a woman.

A male person with dysphoria doesn't feel like a woman, they feel like a male person with dysphoria.

And even if being male and having dysphoria was an identity and being female and not having dysphoria was an identity, which I dispute, they would not be the same identity.

You'll notice that no men, none, ever want to be middle-aged women. Even the ones like Eddie Izzard that are in fact middle-aged. This tells you that really they don't want to be women, what they want to be is a pornified version of a woman that exists only in their imagination.

Again, reading the trans widows thread is enlightening in this regard.

That photo of Eddie in the queue for the loos in London is also enlightening - all the women in gender neutral clothing and Ed in stockings and a bright pink coat touching his cock. We're supposed to be kind, you say?

When men transition they never suddenly want to do all the unpaid work that women do unseen every day and that they'd not bothered with as men. Maybe a bit of performative dusting in a frilly apron gives them those Malaga feelings but the trudging along carrying too much shopping feeling like your arms are going to fall off with a whiny 6 year old complaining the whole way because the car's on the blink and the kids need dinner? The getting up in the night to clear up vomit and poo from the latest vomiting bug brought home from school? The taking over the endless endless admin of emails from school, trips to pay for, dental and doctor and hair cut and optician and shoe measuring appointments to make? Nit combing?Nope.

I’m slightly reminded of Miriam Margolyes, who, I hasten to add, has good qualities too.

It’s not so very awful being a man. You do have to give up some other people’s expectations of you though, unless you find all the stereotypes come naturally.

I think it does, but I’m just one man among billions, so it’s possible it doesn’t always. But I still think it does.

I think he’s unwittingly reinforcing the stereotypes about men that make him uncomfortable. He says he doesn’t like toxic masculinity, but by his actions he’s reinforcing the idea that that’s what ‘real men’ should be like. He’s saying, “I don’t indulge in toxic masculinity ergo I’m not a man”, thereby connecting that toxic masculinity with manhood.

He’s also reinforcing stereotypes by implying that in order to be feminine he has to be a woman - ie men ‘aren’t allowed’ to be feminine.

It’s so regressive and I really don’t understand why so many young people can’t see that.

And does he really like women? I don’t mean sexually, I mean in the way you said that he likes women so much he wants to be one. He just sees us a costume, as ‘man-lite’, not as human beings in our own right. If he really liked us, he’d stop pretending to be a women because he’d know he never could be. And if he’s dressing ‘as a woman’ to signal his lack of toxic masculinity to potential partners, he’ll be turning a lot of them off.

Let's say you didn't want children or you knew you were completely infertile and had zero chance of bearing children. Would you still want to be a woman or would you prefer to be a man and have male privilege?

No I wouldn't. I love being a woman. I've worked hard to be comfortable in this body that I've got and to like it despite all the social messaging that tells me I should not. I bloody love being middle aged. I get that I might not appreciate the invisibility if I hadn't had the female experiences I had, but since I don't know what the alternative is then I'm going to appreciate the heck out of it.
I love spending time with female friends and I wouldn't be able to do that if I was a man. I live the depth of friendship that I'm not sure men can achieve so easily with each other or with groups of women.
I wouldn't swap. It's been shit. Recognising how it's been shit rather than pretending we have equality has been even more shit, but it's all I know. If I could wake up as a man tomorrow in a man's body and with men's experiences, I would turn that opportunity down.

What a load of rubbish, he just wants to be seen as a good guy while doing exactly what he wants to do, make women uncomfortable by trespassing in our spaces.

I often despise the way humans treat each other and the planet but I can't help the situation by rebranding myself as a dolphin.