Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

I never said you or any other poster was right wing.
I said the board has moved right wing and also is cliquey.
The last few posts I've directly been called a Corbyn supporter, a lefty, posting in bad faith from some kind of playbook by multiple posters.
So again, my point is proven. I'm middle of the road but this board and posters on it perceive me to be left, showing how right their viewpoint must be.

I agree

Thank you

Can we possibly move on from discussing this one poster's views, history, opinions?

Yes sorry, you are right. This is derailing and I have been part of that too because annoyed etc

Better to talk about what we clicked on here to discuss in the first place

My point was that this thread was ostensibly started to support women to talk about the rapes, and within 5 posts you were using very goady language, stirring up division and noone said a word.

@AdamRyan

But I think that some posters on here, and in the broader media, are cynically using them as cover for their aim of obliterating Palestinians. Maybe you think thats a conspiracy theory but when I see posters talking about "they take sex slaves", "they want to invade spain"

It's certainly a "conspiracy theory" with what I have said.

I explicitly said that there was a difference between civilians and legitimate military targets, even despite the polling on Palestinian attitudes showing high levels of support for the attack.

I'll check in this evening again to see if you are discussing that, or if like yesterday you are still discussing Gaza/Israel actions just without any pesky challenges from people with different views then

Coming on to the point of it's not worth arguing with some people, particularly those who twist your words to mean something they clearly don't - it's clearly not worth arguing with Hamas. They've shown time and again they won't honour agreements - they've broken the ceasefire and not released all hostages. They've used their own civilians as human shields.

I think in some ways this is why Israel gets more criticism - because they clearly are more open to discussion, debate, reason, and compromise and are closer to western thinking in terms of wanting to limit civilian death. They did not breach the ceasefire, they did not start this war.

However some people do seem to take this as a weakness and expect Israelis to agree to insane things that would kill their own people.

I am concerned about the loss of life on both sides but I do wonder why some people think Israel should be equally concerned about loss of life on the side of the people who started the war as loss of life on their own side, as it seems many seem to think this should be the case. We didn't act like that in World War II.

Interestingly, as I said upthead, I watched a video with some people explaining that one of the failures of western thought is considering that Hamas want to reduce their own casualities and that actually, they don't. Killing large numbers of their own people is something they think is right to do in the sake of their cause. Their behaviour shows us they're not concerned - having their military operations where there are also civilians, telling civilians not to evacuate and trying to prevent them from doing so etc. I suppose since Hamas can't be reasoned with, the natural conclusion is to turn to Israel but rolling over for an ideology such as Hamas would be very, very dangerous for the whole of the western world and history does show us this is not the way to go and it would be terrible for women.

Some have said that Israel isn't always great on women's rights and particularly not some of their extremists. Of course not, but as women what we're often fighting for is the least worst option. What happened on Oct 7th to women was almost inconceivably bad and the fact it was not called out loudly for the atrocity it was was also terrifying.

It is impossible to imagine how you go about recovering from such things

I know some have taken their own lifes already. Really hope we don't see more of this

Obviously it will stay with them for life but I hope as many as possible can at least rebuild their lives and find ways to recover as much as possible

some people think Israel should be equally concerned about loss of life on the side of the people who started the war
The Palestinians didn't "start the war". They are under the governance of a terrorist organisation and they have no options because there are no elections and they can't leave.

Regardless of their levels of "concern" Israel have a legal obligation to be proportionate and minimise civilian deaths It is very hard to see how they are complying with that at the moment. They say themselves they are not being surgical with their bombing.

I agree with grammernut that there are war crimes on both sides.

Yes there is a double standard here. Israel are expected [and indeed they should and must] to abide by international laws and it does not cross anyone's mind to even expect the same of Hamas. Different expectations and different standards.

*edited to say this is in response/ agreement with @pronounsbundlebundle

You put it more succinctly than me!

I think this double standard is in itself very dangerous.

YetAnotherSpartacus · Today 10:10

Are there any good documentaries about the history of Jewish peoples in the ME in medieval and post-medieval times?

I read this one some years ago and found it absolutely fascinating:

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/9477628

@AdamRyan if it makes you feel better I have personally lost family on 7 Oct and I urged posters not to fall into factionalism. As someone whose family's blood has been shed in this horrible conflict I can say that clearly.

I also agree that there are numerous posts that are factional. (On both sides). I refuse to believe that "Palestinians" are the same as Hamas and their extremists. Just as I know "Israelis" are not the same as Netanyahu and their extremists. Of course, right now there is zero trust on either side even among moderates and inflamed emotions which will mean it is take a lot to build a road to peace. But I want to believe one day this can change.

In the meantime this was the only thread I ever found that was discussing the appalling way sexual violence on 7 Oct was ignored and minimised for the sake of ideology and factionalism. It was the only place I saw this discussed from a feminist perspective rather than Jews discussing this and feeling alone, terrified and abandoned. It was incredibly helpful to find this. I think other Jewish posters have said as well it means a lot.

Which is why when you post comments like "metoo unless you are a Jew is problematic because it is co-opted by the rightwing to feed the culture wars" is infuriating. How do you think it feels if it is your family who suffered this, to be told discussing it is politically inconvenient?

I don't know how we can hope for peace in the region of even posters on a board with no personal connection to the conflict can stop fighting?

Not just Israel

Jewish people around the world are also judged by double standards. You are expected to be a good Jew and not be upset or talk about the pogrom and hostages because Gazens are suffering.

If you don't play ball on this you love genocide, are right wing, a child murderer, etc

Seriously the mental gymnastics to get to these views lacks so little empathy. It makes you realise just how little these people think about the victims of the pogrom. They dehumanise us that try to talk about things to detract from what happened and is still happening to Israelis.

The OP article was about feminist groups whitewashing Hamas crimes.

So what I was commenting on, was how the left-wing thinks, why they might be sympathising with Hamas, and what Hamas is really like so it's a mistake to be sympathising with them.

You can disagree with me, but I don't see how that is really "off topic".

As for "stirring up division", if you talk about these subjects it's obviously divisive. That's the nature of a lot of political discussion.

What I said about the left, was actually very mild rhetoric imo.

If I wanted, I could call out your own language for being "slander" and "demonising", where you accuse me of being "phobic"...

deepbluebell if it helps, this is one poster. The majority of people are not extreme, are hoping and praying for peace.

@Trulywonderful

"Not just Israel

Jewish people around the world are also judged by double standards. You are expected to be a good Jew and not be upset or talk about the pogrom and hostages because Gazens are suffering.

If you don't play ball on this you love genocide, are right wing, a child murderer, etc

Seriously the mental gymnastics to get to these views lacks so little empathy. It makes you realise just how little these people think about the victims of the pogrom. They dehumanise us that try to talk about things to detract from what happened and is still happening to Israelis."

100% this!

In so many circles you have to state your position on Israel/Palestine immediately before you can be trusted. (At least in my world, which I admit is left and "purpose" focused). And Jews who are are extremely, virulently anti Israel are then held up as the role model of the "good Jew" as opposed to the rest of us, problematic, untrustworthy ones, who may have more nuanced positions.
And this has always been. It's not only when there is an active conflict flaring up.

I know and I really thank you for this thread. 💐

I should add Muslim women face the same and it's shit no matter who or what the context!

The article posted upthread, the people helping the Nova survivors, was lovely. Ghastly that it's necessary, but lovely that, being necessary, it was done.

I hope when the bombardment of Gaza stops there will be organisations (hamas?, yeah right!) who will step up to help those survivors.

I don't agree anyone on this thread is weaponising what hamas did to stir up anti-islamic feeling. Though people and organisations on both sides are using it to further their own agendas. That's human nature.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about it, or we have to downplay it or all the bullshit used to shame women into silence. It's not their fault if warmongers in Israel are using this for their own agenda. It's not their fault if being raped and butchered by hamas reflects badly on Palestine.

I agree that what is being done for the Nova survivors is lovely - gentle, kind support and a place to just be. What I also noticed was that in the article, once again their response is due to the murders and terror of October 7th, the sexual violence they had witnessed (experienced?) was not mentioned.

This doesn’t make any sense to me. How can “I never said you or any other poster was right wing” and “the board has moved right wing” and “this board and posters on it perceive me to be left, showing how right their viewpoint must be” all be true?

Totally agree

That is why I get on so well with a lot of Muslim women. We get each other and can support each other when hate is directly towards one of our communities or children. Unless others have experienced these issues it is very difficult for them to fully understand even if they have good intent.

Yes that is an interesting point