Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

Yep

Stealing little girls to marry off the grown men isn't a myth about exsteme Islam or some other fuckwit ideologies. It is factual truth that has been reported on and documented

The same as exstemists violently raping and mutilating Jewish people and others isn't a myth. It happened during the pogrom and has happened in the past before 1948 and after in the middle east. This is Jewish history as much as the holocaust, however most people haven't been taught about Jewish Middle Eastern history

The right wing accusation used by the poster on this thread is exactly the same tactic used against lefty Jews during the whole 2015-2019 period. Same playbook. He's learned that if you don't like what someone (i.e. a Jew or ally) is saying, then rather than listen and debate like an adult, it's easier to just shout "Tory"! It was frustrating enough then, but to see it used now in a context around rape is just abhorrent. And the irony is, they accuse anyone departing from their own very fixed ideology (which is basically - worship C**yn) of being guilty of smearing #itsasmear- yet as you can see from said poster, they're the ones dishing out the smears. The exact same narrative used then, is being applied now.

And the 'white feminism' schtick. I'm pretty sure many of us on this thread are barely white passing so that really fucking sticks in the craw.

@AdamRyan
*I have an issue with the influx of right wing, anti immigration, anti human rights, islamophobic posters calling themselves "feminists" to this board, yes."
I did begin a long and considered reply but nah, you won't believe me anyway.

The comment about the thread being started: starting a thread about how feminists aren't feministing right because they aren't prioritising rape as a weapon in a particular war over all other feminist issues completely misses the point, which was that issue was being ignored, minimised and denied, not that it wasn't being prioritised.

You either read too fast to take in the details or you're not arguing in good faith. It makes me reluctant to engage with you.

That wasn't me. I don't agree with the term "white feminism" as it is another pejorative way to tell feminists they are feministing wrong.

However "white feminism" doesn't mean feminism done by white people. It means feminism that prioritises white issues over those facing black and brown women, or excludes black women's voices from the conversation. And some of the reactions to the Sisters Uncut/Southall Black Sisters were exclusionary. Play the ball, not the man.

It is not 'phobic' to accurately report what Islamists are themselves saying and calling for. Islamism is an ideological ( political)-religious ideology in a similar way to the way Zionism is; although many zionists are/were not particularly religious.

Islamists seek a pan muslim/islamic identity: the application of sharia law: reject non muslim influences ( particularly western influences): and promote the creation of Islamic states.

For me, having been brought up on the Left, in which anti Israel sentiment is a automatic rite of passage, I have long since come to question that, and now reject it. That is not to say Israel is without fault, or perfect; of course it isn't; like any other nation state it encompasses every shade of light to dark.

If I now post in support of Israel and its existence, and question the deep rooted anti semitism that lies beneath many anti Israel and anti zionist positions, it is because I am actually seeking balance to the relentless 'genocide' accusations; the accusations of 'fascism'; the denials and politically motivated minimisations of the atrocities that occured; and the willing blindness to the nature of Hamas and of the fanatical zeal of those that support Hamas and its actions - or who make excuses for it.

However "white feminism" doesn't mean feminism done by white people. It means feminism that prioritises white issues over those facing black and brown women, or excludes black women's voices from the conversation.

Yes but that is just academic in this context when so many people do think it means 'done by white women', and when posters use it, often that is what they mean. It's quite obvious across all the threads on the M.E. board that terminology and concepts are thrown about willy nilly without understanding the real meaning (e.g. genocide). And in any case, this thread is about the rape, torture and mutilation of Israeli women, many of whom are simply not white!

To bring the thread back on topic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67636785

Article on women trying to recover from the attacks. As I feared, survivor's guilt features prominently.

One of the things I find grimly hilarious in all this is the young women supporting Hamas's actions wearing western clothes who definitely wouldn't be able to wear those clothes under Sharia law.

I find myself thinking - are they really this dim and uninformed? I guess they must be. Surely they can't in a fully informed manner be going to a protest to support a political ideology that would deny them the right they are exercising (to go to a protest wearing their own free choice of clothes)?

A little off topic but the Shamima Begum documentary on BBC radio 4 was interesting. The discussion with her husband and Shamima about their roles - the husband just confidently asserting she had to do what he told her because she was lesser and he was in charge. Shamima clearly was not happy about the expected roles but there was a sense she was very careful in what she was saying - bearing in mind she was in a refugee camp and presumably within the reach of ISIS supporters.

There's something in there about young people not understanding that things can get worse as well as better and needing better teaching about History as well as critical thinking skills.

I think you'll find many on this board were actually brought up on the Left and have been political activists on the Left. But the Left's embrace of identity politics, particularly, gender identity politics has alienated many; and as a result they have come to question all Leftists shibboleths. That is certainly the case for me.

I think it's obvious when a poster is not in good faith and not open to considering verified, solid, robust additional information and facts, whichever background and original position people come from. Or indeed be respectful of other points of view. That's all I'm going to say.

"Stole the land" from who? The Palestinians have been in what is now Israel for millenia. Hamas didn't exist. So I'm assuming you are referring to some kind of thousands of years old dispute between Muslims, Christians and Jews over the region.

This is the kind of religious tribal bollocks which is why we are in this situation. We should have evolved past biblical bickering really.

"Some Islamists" may dream about Spain as a target. "Some British" would like to expel all non white people from the UK. "Some men" would like to force women to marry men, so that all men have a sex slave. It is so ridiculous that it has no place in a discussion like this.

Play the ball, not the man.

Whut?

Actually on the morning of October 8th, I was at a 'Let Women Speak' rally in Liverpool; outside of the Labour party conference in the city. The reports and footage of what had happened in Israel were just coming through; many of the women were deeply shocked by what they'd seen; haunted by it. One woman at the rally spoke of how her grandmother had been effected by the Holocaust - another of how she had suffered sexual assault, as so called peace loving, 'be kind' progressives screamed abuse at us.

A mob of kids and middle aged men who ought to have known better screaming " Get the fascists off our streets" at us through megaphones. We were being called 'Nazis' and 'extreme right wing' sympathisers........It is par for the course these days to be referred to in such ways by mobs riled up by social media memes, so I take your right wing accusations with same tired and inevitable acceptance.

Are there any good documentaries about the history of Jewish peoples in the ME in medieval and post-medieval times?

Arabs originally came from arabia ( many Jews are also arabs ); the Levant is and was a mediterranean facing region occupied by many civillisations. The Jewish people amongst the oldest. Judaism is 3,500 years old; Islam was only founded in 600 AD. Jersualem was a Jewish city long before Muslims invaded and built a mosque on the mount.

This tribal religious bollocks is, unfortunately, what motivates Hamas and other extremist, including now some extreme Jewish settlers, and cannot be dismissed.

1. I'm not a man
2. I'm not a lefty
3. I'm happy to debate, I'm the one that's repeatedly being told to leave the board/I'm in bad faith/I'm smearing/I am making up conspiracy theories when I challenge what posters have written here
4. I didn't call anyone a white feminist
5. I have never supported corbyn - was a paid up lib dem until the Jo Swinson debacle, joined Labour recently because Starmer is the best centrist option out there

Yes, I am aware thanks. But the poster who wrote "Hamas admit they stole the land!" is clearly of the same ilk. Its ridiculous to give it any credibility.

I think anyone, well a man, this person is a man, who can come into a thread on a feminist board, on the subject of mass racist rape, and lecture the women there are what ‘real feminists’ should do, and tell us not to talk about racist rape as that is weaponising and ghoulish and it’s somehow bad to give witness to the victims in the middle of a cultural storm of denial and minimisation and not only that but had such contempt that they will actually use a crying with laughter emoji in reply to a Jewish woman’s post, then that person is utterly vile , without empathy, and frankly a misogynist, and I for one will not be engaging with them any further.

I didn't say you are very left Leaning because of any argument you give but your Jez fan tactics to whatabout, deflect, belittle and victim blame. It is very obvious from your posts and we have seen it all before. Therefore recognise it very well.

Here we go again with your second third paragraph. It is like you have no self awareness at all or something

Truly ridiculous twisting of posters words and blaming others for not following your chosen narrative. People can talk and care about more than one thing. The only people that seem to not be able to do this is posters like you, evidenced in your many posts. Constant conspiracy theories, denial of facts, whataboutism and insulting attacks about posters.

At this point I have no idea why I have even bothered replying to your vile posts. Well apart from making sure others clearly see and learn to recognise these tactics. So thank you for being a perfect example of the fuckwittery going on and Jewish people are dealing with during this time

Bye

I'm currently reading a big tome by Simon Schama called 'Belonging' - in which he explores the history of the Jews - starting from the expulsion from Spain in 1492 through to 1900.

He follows the real narratives of particular historical characters as Jewish communities moved from city to city. Spain to The Netherlands, to Venice, Mantua, Ferrara, Rome, to Constantinople, back to the Holy Land of Israel, to Brazil, to India, to China. Fasinating and very instructive.

😂
OK then
I'm allowed to say I find someone's point ridiculous, regardless of their religion
Advanced search me and see if you still think I'm a man

Misogynist too, that's hilarious.

I think the rapes are abhorrent. But I think that some posters on here, and in the broader media, are cynically using them as cover for their aim of obliterating Palestinians. Maybe you think thats a conspiracy theory but when I see posters talking about "they take sex slaves", "they want to invade spain", "under sharia law you wouldn't be able to dress like that" "palestians support hamas" "theres no way to distinguish a civilian from hamas" it doesn't look like a conspiracy theory.

The Israeli rape victims need support to heal, not to be used like this to embed more hate, pain and suffering.

But Hamas use this ideology today, to justify real acts of violence.

Previous land conquests are important to Hamas and their ideology.

It's not "bickering" to point out what a group's ideology is actually like, when many people are killed in connection with that ideology.

And while Spain isn't getting invaded anytime soon, there is very real Islamist violence that happens in various different parts of the world.

It is also very insulting to people that are not white to say such things. It says because there own personal views don't follow what some idiots think a non white person should believe and say they are a traitor

Similar to those people that think it is ok to call another person a choc ice or coconut (Remember that teacher with a sign on one of the protests. Then the posters that tired to defend her behaviour).