Page 35 | Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

ArthurbellaScott · 2023-11-18T09:31:06+00:00

[[https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/]] I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account. The rest of it I think is an important read.

Cailleachian · 07/12/2023 19:24

ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 19:10

It's all heartbreaking, and it's unconscionable what's happening in Palestine, but the initial aggressors and the ones committing inhuman atrocities and the ones who bear responsibility for the war seem very clearly to me to be Hamas.

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Hamas didnt even exist until 1987, nearly 40 years after the Nakba.

How could they have started it?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-01-20/ty-article-magazine/theres-a-mass-palestinian-grave-at-a-popular-israeli-beach-veterans-confess/0000017f-f230-d223-a97f-fffdbd5b0000

There's a mass Palestinian grave at a popular Israeli beach, veterans confess

***

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-01-20/ty-article-magazine/theres-a-mass-palestinian-grave-at-a-popular-israeli-beach-veterans-confess/0000017f-f230-d223-a97f-fffdbd5b0000

stomachameleon · 07/12/2023 19:49

@ArthurbellaScott and that response to your statement to an event that happened eight weeks ago proves why it is so difficult to move forward.

On the feminism board.

headstone · 07/12/2023 19:53

The white feminism board to be precise.

stomachameleon · 07/12/2023 20:02

@headstone that sounds like something you need to take up with Mumsnet. Is that the case?

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 20:20

stomachameleon · 07/12/2023 19:49

@ArthurbellaScott and that response to your statement to an event that happened eight weeks ago proves why it is so difficult to move forward.

On the feminism board.

This isn't a feminist board any more. Its a cliquey group think board where no difference of opinion is tolerated.

stomachameleon · 07/12/2023 20:25

@AdamRyan I thought you had come here to learn? Was that not true?

Trulywonderful · 07/12/2023 20:38

RebelliousCow · 07/12/2023 09:03

I think Golda Meir was right when she said this. It is not that Palestinians don't love their children; of course they do, as much as anyone else, but their hatred for Israel and for Jews seems far stronger a motivating force - for which they see sacrifice as worthwhile. The idea that all muslims must be martyrs; that matyrdom is their duty.How can there ever be peace or a lasting truce when this is what fuels the 'resistance' ( the fundamental rejection of Israel's existence)?

Answers on a postcard.

Edited

She said some very wise things, that are relevant now it seems

I think this one is how Israelis feel about the reaction towards them from many in the west at the moment

Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

Trulywonderful · 07/12/2023 20:40

I am white today it seems

Interesting

turbonerd · 07/12/2023 20:58

ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 19:10

It's all heartbreaking, and it's unconscionable what's happening in Palestine, but the initial aggressors and the ones committing inhuman atrocities and the ones who bear responsibility for the war seem very clearly to me to be Hamas.

Show quote history

I agree that this war is Hamas’ responsibility. They have decided that the lives of far too many palestinians and the suffering of all on the Gaza strip is acceptable in order to make Israel lose their public support.
That is atrocious.

It is impossible to say that no one in the leadership in Israel have not welcome this opportunity though. People of all and any ethnicity can be awful bastards.

Hamas engineered this situation, and they knowingly refuse to release hostages and broke the ceasefire.

But I do hear many say Israel has gone too far in their retaliation. The suffering of civilians is undeniable - and the Russia/Ukraine comparisons keep on coming. This is something Hamas has been working for, I have no doubt.

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 22:16

stomachameleon · 07/12/2023 20:25

@AdamRyan I thought you had come here to learn? Was that not true?

That was a different thread and I was talking about MN in general. I was alluding to this board when I said in recent years its been getting harder to get balanced views on MN.

I lurk on particular threads on this board occasionally but rarely post any more because of the cliquiness and the fact posters will just drive off anyone with a differing view. Unfortunately I have not yet learnt to tolerate blatant racism and othering, so stupidly got drawn into questioning a poster on this thread.

stomachameleon · 07/12/2023 22:28

@AdamRyan oh so it's more the feminist Board you have an issue with? I must have mixed the threads up.

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 22:30

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 20:20

This isn't a feminist board any more. Its a cliquey group think board where no difference of opinion is tolerated.

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Rubbish. There are lots of posters with different views here posting.

This very conversation a case in point.

OP posts:

Grammarnut · 07/12/2023 22:54

headstone · 07/12/2023 19:53

The white feminism board to be precise.

Your point being? And how do you know this? Funny, but I cannot tell a person's colour from their posts on Mumsnet, nor from their username. How do you?

Grammarnut · 07/12/2023 22:56

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 22:16

That was a different thread and I was talking about MN in general. I was alluding to this board when I said in recent years its been getting harder to get balanced views on MN.

I lurk on particular threads on this board occasionally but rarely post any more because of the cliquiness and the fact posters will just drive off anyone with a differing view. Unfortunately I have not yet learnt to tolerate blatant racism and othering, so stupidly got drawn into questioning a poster on this thread.

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I have found no racism here. And views seem balanced. My balanced view on committing rape is that it certainly happens, and I think it vile. What other view could one have? I too am an occasional poster and have occasionally been called out (sometimes deservedly so) but I do not think my views are biased against. I routinely object to e.g. Brexiteers being called uneducated fools (I am a Brexiteer, if that matters any more).

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 23:00

stomachameleon · 07/12/2023 22:28

@AdamRyan oh so it's more the feminist Board you have an issue with? I must have mixed the threads up.

I have an issue with the influx of right wing, anti immigration, anti human rights, islamophobic posters calling themselves "feminists" to this board, yes.

It's changed the tone of the board from being radical feminist, questioning and debating ideas to group think and hounding people who don't 100% agree with right wing shit. Such as, case in point, starting a thread about how feminists aren't feministing right because they aren't prioritising rape as a weapon in a particular war over all other feminist issues.

I posted something about how "#MeTooexceptifURajew" is mainly being discussed by the right wing and my impression is culture wars fanatics have coopted the disgusting rapes of Jewish women to fuel division. Crickets. That should be a topic feminists want to discuss on a thread like this.

Instead I got told to fuck off because this is a "support thread" when I challenged some racism against Palestinians.

I followed the thread from the start and have seen similar happen to other posters.

Nothing happening on this board now is a version of feminism I know.

So yeah. The "on a feminism board" doesn't wash with me.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/12/2023 23:02

The white feminism board to be precise.

Oh, are we all supposed to back off now back to our boxes because we have been accused of being 'white'?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/12/2023 23:02

I have an issue with the influx of right wing, anti immigration, anti human rights, islamophobic posters calling themselves "feminists" to this board, yes.

How does anti-Semitism sit with you?

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 23:03

Grammarnut · 07/12/2023 22:56

I have found no racism here. And views seem balanced. My balanced view on committing rape is that it certainly happens, and I think it vile. What other view could one have? I too am an occasional poster and have occasionally been called out (sometimes deservedly so) but I do not think my views are biased against. I routinely object to e.g. Brexiteers being called uneducated fools (I am a Brexiteer, if that matters any more).

Edited

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Racism being the conflation of Palestinians with Hamas, the labelling of Palestinians as anarchic and trouble makers, the suggestion that the death of all the Gazans (I.e. most Palestinians) is possible if they don't capitulate to Israels demands.

If someone wrote about Israelis the way the Palestinians are talked about, they would rightly be pulled up for being antisemitic. Just because you can't see the racism doesn't mean it isn't there.

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 23:06

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/12/2023 23:02

I have an issue with the influx of right wing, anti immigration, anti human rights, islamophobic posters calling themselves "feminists" to this board, yes.

How does anti-Semitism sit with you?

Hate it. I hate all "othering" and stereotyping of groups of people.

I am not antisemitic for objecting to the way Palestinians are being talked about on this thread. In fact I try to be extremely careful about making it clear when I'm talking about the Israeli government (usually), Israel as a country and Jews (pretty much never on these threads).

Grammarnut · 07/12/2023 23:09

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 23:03

Racism being the conflation of Palestinians with Hamas, the labelling of Palestinians as anarchic and trouble makers, the suggestion that the death of all the Gazans (I.e. most Palestinians) is possible if they don't capitulate to Israels demands.

If someone wrote about Israelis the way the Palestinians are talked about, they would rightly be pulled up for being antisemitic. Just because you can't see the racism doesn't mean it isn't there.

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Some may make such a conflation. I do not - though I am worried about people cheering at the desecration of bodies paraded through Gaza - and I doubt everyone does. My feeling is that the onslaught on Gaza ought to stop, but that Hamas brought this about. Children do not deserve to be bombed nor be the victims of a massacre, and it matters not at all which side is doing which. Both are behaving wrongly. There should be a ceasefire, a neutral investigation of both Oct 7th and the numbers claimed to have died on both sides. I think that will end with trials for war crimes.

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 23:11

You've been entirely disingenuous right through, AdamRyan. You've smeared other posters, derailed, put offensive words in my mouth and distorted and fabricated strawman arguments.

And I refuse to be drawn into any more bullshit so called arguments on a thread that has had many other posters make moving and insightful and honest posts.

OP posts:

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 23:17

PorcelinaV · 18/11/2023 09:58

Appears to be a tendency on the left that perceived victim groups are excused for their crimes.

Note that with Hamas, they openly admit that their own side stole the land, and they think they have a "religious right" to steal other people's land. Their ideology is one of supremacism and colonialism.

They aren't even just claiming to want all of Israel, but this kind of ideology would involve the right to invade e.g. Spain.

Some Islamists do still talk about how it's "allowed" to take sex slaves.

But hey, if they do something bad, it must really be "white supremacy" that has oppressed the little darlings.

This is the fifth post on this thread, demonstrates everything that I said. Demonisation of "the left" in the first line. Nice bit of hyperbole and factual inaccuracy about "Hamas admit their side stole the land", talking about possible "invasions" of Europe, bit of Islamophobia about "Islamists" (not clear who these are) taking sex slaves. Topped off with a bit of language appealing to racial divisions.

Absolutely disgusting and noone batted an eyelid.

stomachameleon · 07/12/2023 23:17

@AdamRyan I am sorry you are angry.

I am just going to be honest with you. I am not on the feminist boards (except Today) so I don't feel equipped to either comment or judge.

The first time I 'ran into you' I commented on an immigration discussion. You really belittled me but I feel like that issue is prevalent in this country and sometimes people just like to feel heard. I may not be as clever as you or feel like I can hold my own on some of the more wordy threads but I try to understand. We don't all have the same views.

I don't doubt that the #metoounlessyourajew thing has been hijacked. I am sorry no one wanted to debate it but on here I don't want to debate it. I just want to reflect on my sorry and genuine heartbreak for people I love and in some respects know.

I genuinely haven't seen any racism on here. Condemnation plenty. Understanding Lots. Bewilderment by the ton. No nastiness. Apart from descriptions how much worse can it get? That's it for me. It's not about getting one over or who has it worse. It's the real sickening realisation that it's a reality for someone captured in Gaza.

Perhaps another thread on feminism to reflect your disquiet? Instead of stalking the one that makes you so unhappy.

Anyway..... I have probably said too much and sound like an idiot.

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 23:23

stomachameleon · 07/12/2023 23:17

@AdamRyan I am sorry you are angry.

I am just going to be honest with you. I am not on the feminist boards (except Today) so I don't feel equipped to either comment or judge.

The first time I 'ran into you' I commented on an immigration discussion. You really belittled me but I feel like that issue is prevalent in this country and sometimes people just like to feel heard. I may not be as clever as you or feel like I can hold my own on some of the more wordy threads but I try to understand. We don't all have the same views.

I don't doubt that the #metoounlessyourajew thing has been hijacked. I am sorry no one wanted to debate it but on here I don't want to debate it. I just want to reflect on my sorry and genuine heartbreak for people I love and in some respects know.

I genuinely haven't seen any racism on here. Condemnation plenty. Understanding Lots. Bewilderment by the ton. No nastiness. Apart from descriptions how much worse can it get? That's it for me. It's not about getting one over or who has it worse. It's the real sickening realisation that it's a reality for someone captured in Gaza.

Perhaps another thread on feminism to reflect your disquiet? Instead of stalking the one that makes you so unhappy.

Anyway..... I have probably said too much and sound like an idiot.

Thank you stoma . I'm sorry if I'm coming across as thinking I know better, I try to be clear in what I'm saying but sometimes it's probably too blunt.

AdamRyan · 07/12/2023 23:26

Grammarnut · 07/12/2023 23:09

Some may make such a conflation. I do not - though I am worried about people cheering at the desecration of bodies paraded through Gaza - and I doubt everyone does. My feeling is that the onslaught on Gaza ought to stop, but that Hamas brought this about. Children do not deserve to be bombed nor be the victims of a massacre, and it matters not at all which side is doing which. Both are behaving wrongly. There should be a ceasefire, a neutral investigation of both Oct 7th and the numbers claimed to have died on both sides. I think that will end with trials for war crimes.

Show quote history

I agree with this.
When I was a child my mum always used to respond to "they started it" with "and you kept it going". I wish the Israelis had taken a bit of time and sought more international help before taking action and I think they are playing into Hamas' hands. To what end I don't know but it's awful that so many people are dying and being injured with no end in sight.