Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

I agree. Israel has played into Hamas hands. Should have taken more thought.

I am not antisemitic for objecting to the way Palestinians are being talked about on this thread. In fact I try to be extremely careful about making it clear when I'm talking about the Israeli government (usually), Israel as a country and Jews (pretty much never on these threads).

But do you actively counter anti-Semitism? Please go to the dedicated 'Conflict in the Middle East Board' and start by addressing the many and multiple instances of anti-Semitism there. These include stereotyping the Jewish people, confusing Jewishness with Zionism, denial and minimisation of the October 7 attacks on Israel and the ensuing rape, assault, murder and torture of Israeli and other citizens and justifying what Hamas did on that date.

Yes, funny how we Ashkenazi Jews are suddenly 'white' when genetically we're approximately 50% Levantine and the closest groups are Druze, and yes Palestinians!
Genetic origins Ashkenazi Jews

So it's terribly racist to call this board 'white' feminism @AdamRyan go educate yourself

I posted something about how "#MeTooexceptifURajew" is mainly being discussed by the right wing and my impression is culture wars fanatics have coopted the disgusting rapes of Jewish women to fuel division. Crickets. That should be a topic feminists want to discuss on a thread like this.

This is a boring trope bad faith posters continually use. Buzz words - right wing, culture war fanatics, racist, anti immigration, white feminists, dictating what Feminists 'should' discuss. Personally I can't be bothered engaging.

This thread was started because of the deafening silence about the atrocities committed on Oct 7th. If you want to discuss something else start a new thread. You've said several times you're leaving the thread and yet you keep returning. It's obvious we're not your sort of feminists.

This is a boring trope bad faith posters continually use. Buzz words - right wing, culture war fanatics, racist, anti immigration, white feminists, dictating what Feminists 'should' discuss. Personally I can't be bothered engaging.

I wonder how Jewish immigration, from the mid-1800s on, both as simple immigration and as part of an Aliyah inspired by the rise of Zionism to the area known as Palestine (amongst many other names) which Jewish people regard as their ancestral homeland, in turn inspired by often violent anti-Semitism, including the pogroms in Russia, is understood by those who run the 'left-wingers are good because we are pro-immigration' line? This is especially the case since that immigration/colonialism was initially encouraged and supported by the Ottoman Empire which ruled a great chunk of the Middle East and had done so since the 1500s.

I love how ' white feminist ' is supposed to be some kind of insult, to make all the women here shut up.
Such a cliche and pathetic tactic.
And all the Jewish women here are 'brown'
So jog on...

I explained the whole me to unless you are a Jew thing in detail. Therefore not surprised others didn't feel the need. I covered all the it all. So not surprised others didn't get into a conversation about it. The poster knows full well people are not just talking about Jews being raped but are saying it is being ignored because of the way others feel about anything Jewish related.

They have used multiple conspiracy theories on this thread

Have deliberately done whataboutism on a lot of points when people are trying to talk about the victims of rape

From the last few posts it is very clear they are very left leaning, so I think we can assume what with all the other evidence in previous posts the user is a fan of he who must not be named

Not seeing much that says feminist in their posts either to be honest. Most real feminists want to highlight abuses of women not say but.........

Hamas do admit their own side stole the land. This is their sick "justification" for violence. It's a false, twisted, supremacist ideology.

And as I said, their ideology isn't just limited to destroying Israel. Yes, it involves that they would in theory claim the right to invade other territories including Spain.

Obviously Hamas are rather busy right now, but some Islamists really do dream about Spain as a target. I just posted a video on this very issue:

https://youtube.com/shorts/krqpVcp0VPc

Anyway, I'm just telling you what Hamas itself says about its own ideology.

It's hardly my fault if they have some lunatic supremacist ideology!

Well yes that is of course true

However I am not just Ashkenazi

So not even more not white than that

@AdamRyan

bit of Islamophobia about "Islamists" (not clear who these are) taking sex slaves.

What I said was completely accurate: some Islamists do still talk about how it's "allowed" to take sex slaves.

Making factual statements is a "phobia" now apparently...

Yep the exstemists Islam ideology that Hamas follows means they want to take over all lands around the world. If you don't believe that then you haven't been listening to their speeches over the years. They literally say this. For example when the ex leader spoke about Jihad day literally talked as well about spreading around the world and for there to be no more Christianity or Judaism.

This ideology isn't knew it is the same ideology that ethic cleansed Jewish people from the middle east by way of riots, murder and massacres. Pogroms like the one Israel has just had but multipled in most middle eastern countries. Even before 1948 when Israel declared a state there were pogroms as violent as the recent one. Lots of historical evidence, newspaper stories and photos available about this. This is the reason why the international community decided it was better to divide the land. It was thought that the Arabs and the Jews would fight even worse once the British left if a solution wasn't found.

Sex slaves not true?

For example this happened to Yazidi girls

About 6,000 women and children were captured, and many were sold to ISIS fighters. They were treated as disposable property, repeatedly raped, traded and sold at will.

Each woman, who is taken in captivity, is usually bought and sold by fighters. From the moment of the purchase, there is a special contract, which is in fact notarized by Islamic State court. All those women in captivity are called “sabaya” which means a slave. It was a official term among ISIS.

This is what baffles me with people supporting Hamas. By their own words- their own ideology they are coming after everyone. Their stated aim is to wipe Jewish people from the earth- and for a worldwide jihad. They are after every single other faith- and every Muslim who is not their brand of faith. They say it themselves and always have done. How can Hamas supporters not see it?

This othering of Jewish people ...this blatant and gleeful anti Semitism that has been demonstrated by people in this country.... it has shocked me to the core. But who do these people marching thinking they are so anti racist and right on think is next? They are. We all will be. Hamas is a global threat that must be eradicated.

Boko Haram kidnapped nearly 300 schoolgirls and 'married them off'.

Spot on @MustardChair, it is totally baffling.
It is disconcerting that not agreeing with Hamas might be construed as being islamophobic.

Being critical of aspects of a religion is not being phobic.
I am equally critical of fundamentalist sections in all religions, because of the extreme limits that they place on women in particular. How they dehumanise women, consider them as property/chattel; a mindset that in effect lead to attacks like the one on 7th October to be considered something to be proud of.

I have read the Bible and the Quran, amongst other texts, and if you are to live by these texts BY THE WORD, it is not particularly women-friendly, no.

The very big problem is that non-secular government do not operate a ‘live and let live’ approach, as we all well know. When religious law dictates the way society is run you simply cannot opt out. I do not want to go back to such a society if it can be helped.

Mustard Chair said.....
"They say it themselves and always have done. How can Hamas supporters not see it?"

They do see it and fully know it. They are practicing Taqiyya.

After Spain, surely Italy, at least the south, and then Vienna? These were the targets between 800 and the 15th century.

Oh my God this is insane!

It’s like some dark version of buzzword bingo.

“Weaponizing rape! Anyone who disagrees with me is Right Wing! People who disagree with me have group think! Engaging in wild, distorting hyperbole about what people have actually said to bolster my weak case!

One of the strengths of feminism is that women have always robustly disagreed. Academia used to be the same. It’s to the detriment of academia that they no longer exists in some quarters and to the detriment of gender ideology that it never existed there. If you thought feminism was cosy agreeing they’ve you misunderstood it. And you’ve misunderstood how movements strengthen themselves. It’s through robust debate that we learn how to distinguish good ideas from bad.

Saying ‘Metoo except if you are a Jew’ is some right wing conspiracy is without merit. It’s blatantly obvious that there has been a wild difference in reaction to the rape of Israeli Jewish women compared to other atrocities, say that of the Yazidi women. No one demanded to see tapes of actual yazidi women being actually raped to believe it then.

If there are elements of the Left that are so captured by their ideology that their need to deny or minimize what happened on October 7th to maintain their core view that it’s Palestinians, even if they are Hamas murderers, would are victims and Israelis who are oppressors, and they will not shift from that no matter how deliberately brutal the massacre against Israelis is, then that does not stop those of us, whatever our political persuasion, from being able to see a massacre as a masssacre and Israeli victims as victims, and rape as rape, and revolting prejudice against Israelis as racism. And if those who are politically right are more able to see that because they are not blinded by ideology like some on the left are, then that is evidence of a fault on the Left, not a conspiracy on the right.

I would remind you that there are those on the left so blinded, that they publically refuse to say that calling for genocide of Jews is bullying and harassment of Jewish people. That’s a colossal example how bad things are. So bad that people like you think expecting feminists to condemn racist war rape is a right wing conspiracy.

Thank you fantasyanswer. I would add that suggesting I or anyone else is 'rightwing' for being horrified by what seems to be co ordinated mass rape, torture and murder of women is both inaccurate and grimly absurd.

starting a thread about how feminists aren't feministing right because they aren't prioritising rape as a weapon in a particular war over all other feminist issues

I started this thread in mounting horror at the silence on what is beyond doubt an unspeakable war crime. To criticise me for raising the subject of rape, is abhorrent.

This was the line in that poster’s post that I found most revolting too.

Agree with you totally

It is like a lot of people put their fingers in their ears whenever Hamas have said something that doesn't suit their western useful idiot narrative of the conflict. I mean Hamas has always over the years made statements and speeches that say exactly what they believe and want to do. The fact that sometimes they pretend to play ball and not be so bad to get more money doesn't cancel out those speeches and statements. Essentially when even right now they have been threatening world take over and to first repeat the pogrom over and over again in Israel.

When people tell you what they are listen. The same goes for some users on mumsnet and social media in general. If they keep sprouting conspiracy theories and have little regard for women that were raped in Israel. However constantly try to spin it so Israelis are to blame for the pogrom. Listen to what they are saying and telling you about themselves. They are not feminists but people using feminism as a tool to promote their own crank opinions

I find it absolutely horrifying and appalling that posters can dismiss a thread on the subject of rape as 'rightwing shit'. This is dangerous, not just for the appalling and continuing situation in Israel and Palestine, but for women everywhere.

Absolutely

I think when some people can't fool others into agreeing with their own bias and conspiracy theories, they attack with nonsense to deflect from the fact they have been called out on their rubbish

Daughter of a union leader here. A very Labour voting family, apart from when Jez was leader of course. Some of the user names I am seeing here I recognise as Labour voters too. We have had conversations on threads about how messed up the part has been and why we couldn't vote when Jez was leader. So the whole right wing accusations is a bunch of rubbish. A lot of posters are using this at the moment to throw at anyone that doesn't believe Hamas are freedom fighters or that only Israel is to blame for everything

I'm not a Labour voter, I'm a Libdem, or would be if they hadn't all gone collectively mad. But it shouldn't even bloody matter. Women should be able to talk about rape without being smeared or maligned, no matter their political leanings.