Page 39 | Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

ArthurbellaScott · 2023-11-18T09:31:06+00:00

[[https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/]] I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account. The rest of it I think is an important read.

Totallymessed · 08/12/2023 13:05

I don't want to derail any further, but I just wanted to say how horrifying it isn't to see someone accuse people of using "right wing tropes" on a thread about the mass rape and torture of women. I just find it mind-blowing to see being upset about rape being twisted into a left/right issue. How can someone do that and consider themselves a feminist?

And then there's the "white feminist" accusation. Concern about rape is surely a pretty core part of feminism (and being a woman ), race shouldn't come into it (and does that poster really believe everyone on here is white? Just bizarre.)

I feel like some people's concern for Palestinians has sent them into some very dark places.

stomachameleon · 08/12/2023 13:14

@ArthurbellaScott do you think we could continue this thread as it's filling up rather fast? A part two?

Totallymessed · 08/12/2023 13:22

Sorry I meant how horrifying it is! But people probably realised

EtiennePalmiere · 08/12/2023 13:26

pronounsbundlebundle · 08/12/2023 09:53

I think it's obvious when a poster is not in good faith and not open to considering verified, solid, robust additional information and facts, whichever background and original position people come from. Or indeed be respectful of other points of view. That's all I'm going to say.

Agreed !! It's disrespectful to derail a thread so much too.

deepbluebell · 08/12/2023 13:29

This from yesterday is really worth a watch and the title should be the mantra of any thread or activism on this topic: "Contribute to compassion instead of hatred". Especially when we are considering the impact on women.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/12/06/exp-israel-gaza-robi-damelin-intw-120601pseg1-cnni-world.cnn

Robi Damelin is such a role model.

Israeli peace activist: "Contribute to compassion instead of hatred" | CNN

Robi Damelin’s son was killed by a Palestinian sniper in 2002. Now she devotes her life to pursuing peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/12/06/exp-israel-gaza-robi-damelin-intw-120601pseg1-cnni-world.cnn

Murica · 08/12/2023 13:29

pronounsbundlebundle · 08/12/2023 09:51

One of the things I find grimly hilarious in all this is the young women supporting Hamas's actions wearing western clothes who definitely wouldn't be able to wear those clothes under Sharia law.

I find myself thinking - are they really this dim and uninformed? I guess they must be. Surely they can't in a fully informed manner be going to a protest to support a political ideology that would deny them the right they are exercising (to go to a protest wearing their own free choice of clothes)?

A little off topic but the Shamima Begum documentary on BBC radio 4 was interesting. The discussion with her husband and Shamima about their roles - the husband just confidently asserting she had to do what he told her because she was lesser and he was in charge. Shamima clearly was not happy about the expected roles but there was a sense she was very careful in what she was saying - bearing in mind she was in a refugee camp and presumably within the reach of ISIS supporters.

There's something in there about young people not understanding that things can get worse as well as better and needing better teaching about History as well as critical thinking skills.

Yes, these foolish people, the boys too, apparently believe they would've been treated differently had they been at the music festival. Any one of us posting here would have been brutalized. Regardless of skin color or our political opinions. Hamas did not ask questions first. I can see why naive young people might not get that. But grown ass adults? It could have been you!

Fantasyanswer · 08/12/2023 13:51

Murica · 08/12/2023 13:29

Yes, these foolish people, the boys too, apparently believe they would've been treated differently had they been at the music festival. Any one of us posting here would have been brutalized. Regardless of skin color or our political opinions. Hamas did not ask questions first. I can see why naive young people might not get that. But grown ass adults? It could have been you!

Show quote history

Indeed. Here is Naama Levy, the young women filmed being dragged from the back of the terrorist's jeep.
https://www.bring-naama-levy-home.org/naama-s-story

She was a good young woman, working to help others.

NAAMA'S STORY | Bring Naama Levy

https://www.bring-naama-levy-home.org/naama-s-story

NovemberAutumn · 08/12/2023 13:55

Not only did Hamas not ask questions they also killed people who they knew were not Israelis. Thai workers. 39 Thai workers were killed and a number taken hostage.

RebelliousCow · 08/12/2023 13:56

AdamRyan · 08/12/2023 10:45

some people think Israel should be equally concerned about loss of life on the side of the people who started the war
The Palestinians didn't "start the war". They are under the governance of a terrorist organisation and they have no options because there are no elections and they can't leave.

Regardless of their levels of "concern" Israel have a legal obligation to be proportionate and minimise civilian deaths It is very hard to see how they are complying with that at the moment. They say themselves they are not being surgical with their bombing.

I agree with grammernut that there are war crimes on both sides.

Unfortunately, the sentiments which motivate Hamas are not uncommon.
I did suggest you had a look at the IDF twiiter feed if you wanted to understand what and why they were targeting certain areas or buildings; just saying they are " indiscriminate" is not true - no matter how ruthless and uncompromising the actions might be.

The term " war crime" is now becoming as over-used now as the term " fascist" for anyone who disagrees with a 'progressive' position. Likewise " genocide". These terms have a specific meaning. -and it mostly to do with intention. Those who have been prosecuted in international courts for war crimnes are those who have wilfully set out with the purpose of destroying a population. Those who have 'disappeared', captured, tortured and starved civllian populations and enacted mass rape on women and girls.

Hamas absolutely qualify for prosecution. And they even knowingly sacrifice their own people and steal humanitarian intended for their people.

https://www.memri.org/tv/elderly-palestinian-woman-argue-jazeera-hamas-aid-tunnels

Elderly Palestinian Woman To Al-Jazeera Reporter Near A Khan Yunis Hospital: Hamas Takes All The Aid To Their Tunnels And Homes; They Can Shoot Me, I Am Not Afraid Of Them

An elderly Palestinian woman standing outside Nasser Hospital in Khan Yunis told an Al-Jazeera Network (Qatar) reporter ...

https://www.memri.org/tv/elderly-palestinian-woman-argue-jazeera-hamas-aid-tunnels

thatsthewayitis · 08/12/2023 13:56

Actually, we've seen what happens to Westernized young women who support Islamic Fundamentalism; Iran. And now young women and girls are tortured and killed for fighting against hijab.

For those with an interest. Here's a scientific link about how DNA from the Levant (Near East) is different from Arab DNA. It's important as Levantine DNA also had ancient European admixture.
Levantine DNS

Let's remember Noa Agramani and the other sexually abused Israeli women still being held and tortured by Hamas..+ 2 children

Continuity and Admixture in the Last Five Millennia of Levantine History from Ancient Canaanite and Present-Day Lebanese Genome Sequences

The Canaanites inhabited the Levant region during the Bronze Age and established a culture that became influential in the Near East and beyond. However, the Canaanites, unlike most other ancient Near Easterners of this period, left few surviving textua...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5544389/

Fantasyanswer · 08/12/2023 14:17

Extraordinary video in which a Jewish student highlights the extent of antisemitism on campus at @MIT. Elite universities and their DEI bureaucracies have failed us This is posted by Ed Leon Klinger

https://twitter.com/edleonklinger/status/1732304339689967693

Its absolutely shocking.

https://twitter.com/edleonklinger/status/1732304339689967693

biscuit32 · 08/12/2023 14:31

RebelliousCow · 08/12/2023 09:52

I think you'll find many on this board were actually brought up on the Left and have been political activists on the Left. But the Left's embrace of identity politics, particularly, gender identity politics has alienated many; and as a result they have come to question all Leftists shibboleths. That is certainly the case for me.

Show quote history

I'm also left leaning, certainly not right wing and I can see the horror that has occurred on both sides on this conflict. Saying what Hamas did is horrific is not being right wing, it was incredibly brutal and designed to provoke a reaction, now ordinary people on both sides have suffered and are continuing to suffer. I'm horrified by the situation in Gaza and feel for the innocent victims of this conflict regardless of whether they are from Israel or Gaza.

thatsthewayitis · 08/12/2023 14:53

Fantasyanswer · 08/12/2023 14:17

Extraordinary video in which a Jewish student highlights the extent of antisemitism on campus at @MIT. Elite universities and their DEI bureaucracies have failed us This is posted by Ed Leon Klinger

https://twitter.com/edleonklinger/status/1732304339689967693

Its absolutely shocking.

O my gods, just watched it. I'm so shocked, it's vile and virulent and supported by the University.This is exactly 1930s Germany live...and you see the answer to "how did respected German intellectuals go along with it."
Every Jewish philanthropist needs to wake up and donate only to Israeli universities, hospitals and research facilities.

AdamRyan · 08/12/2023 14:58

RebelliousCow · 08/12/2023 13:56

Unfortunately, the sentiments which motivate Hamas are not uncommon.
I did suggest you had a look at the IDF twiiter feed if you wanted to understand what and why they were targeting certain areas or buildings; just saying they are " indiscriminate" is not true - no matter how ruthless and uncompromising the actions might be.

The term " war crime" is now becoming as over-used now as the term " fascist" for anyone who disagrees with a 'progressive' position. Likewise " genocide". These terms have a specific meaning. -and it mostly to do with intention. Those who have been prosecuted in international courts for war crimnes are those who have wilfully set out with the purpose of destroying a population. Those who have 'disappeared', captured, tortured and starved civllian populations and enacted mass rape on women and girls.

Hamas absolutely qualify for prosecution. And they even knowingly sacrifice their own people and steal humanitarian intended for their people.

https://www.memri.org/tv/elderly-palestinian-woman-argue-jazeera-hamas-aid-tunnels

Edited

Show quote history

As it seems to be De Rigeur on here to respond with cries of "smear! Misquoted!"

And fortunately the law is written down: in war actions have to be targeted against military objectives and if it's not clear if a target is military or civilian (that includes buildings and people) then its to be assumed they are civilians.
It is illegal to starve civilians in a siege.

I NEVER said Israel are indiscriminately bombing. I said they aren't being surgical and its hard to see how they are complying with the law. A fairly mild statement about my own personal views. No need to twist my words and misquote me.

Original poster

ArthurbellaScott · 08/12/2023 15:00

stomachameleon · 08/12/2023 13:14

@ArthurbellaScott do you think we could continue this thread as it's filling up rather fast? A part two?

Of course.

OP posts:

Fantasyanswer · 08/12/2023 15:07

thatsthewayitis · 08/12/2023 14:53

O my gods, just watched it. I'm so shocked, it's vile and virulent and supported by the University.This is exactly 1930s Germany live...and you see the answer to "how did respected German intellectuals go along with it."
Every Jewish philanthropist needs to wake up and donate only to Israeli universities, hospitals and research facilities.

Show quote history

Yes, this is what has shocked me. I've read quite a bit about the rise of the Nazis and what led to the holocaust. But now, right in front of me in real time, I can actually see acting out the absolute mentality, way of 'thinking' ( I think air quotes are justified there), dehumanisation and behaviour that led to the holocaust.

I never thought I would see anything like this in the Western world in my life time. And from the Left too. What we are seeing is entirely from the Left.

stomachameleon · 08/12/2023 15:08

Saying what Hamas did is horrific is not being right wing,

It's almost another way to get women to be quiet.

Queucumber · 08/12/2023 15:31

’The Israeli rape victims need support to heal, not to be used like this to embed more hate, pain and suffering.’

The vast majority are dead. They were raped, mutilated and then murdered.

SinnerBoy · 08/12/2023 15:44

stomachameleon · Today 15:08

Saying what Hamas did is horrific is not being right wing,

Of course it's not and anyone saying so is detached from reality. I'm on the left and see easily that their actions were inexcusable, depraved and barbaric. Nobody rational could support, or excuse them.

thatsthewayitis · 08/12/2023 15:48

@Fantasyanswer
sadly I'm not shocked that it's from the Left. I studied Russian history... Russia had a pact with Hitler. Jewish Marxist-Leninists were at the forefront of the Revolution until Stalin exterminated them in his post war purges.

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 08/12/2023 15:53

Fantasyanswer · 08/12/2023 15:07

Yes, this is what has shocked me. I've read quite a bit about the rise of the Nazis and what led to the holocaust. But now, right in front of me in real time, I can actually see acting out the absolute mentality, way of 'thinking' ( I think air quotes are justified there), dehumanisation and behaviour that led to the holocaust.

I never thought I would see anything like this in the Western world in my life time. And from the Left too. What we are seeing is entirely from the Left.

Show quote history

This sort of thing has been on the rise for a while.

The internet/social media has convinced people to pick a side in any sort of conflict and then demonise and dehumanise the other side. Once the dehumanisation starts, it's easier to convince people that violence against the other side is OK.

For example, the craze of milkshaking people a few years ago. Loads of people found it funny because it was being done to right-wing people, they never thought any further than it happening to someone they don't like. Then it moves onto to 'punch a nazi' where the nazi's in question are women that don't believe people can change sex.
It's a terrible slippery slope to go down but people just don't see it, and they won't until it affects them personally.
It's a scary time.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/12/2023 15:54

deepbluebell · 08/12/2023 13:29

This from yesterday is really worth a watch and the title should be the mantra of any thread or activism on this topic: "Contribute to compassion instead of hatred". Especially when we are considering the impact on women.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/12/06/exp-israel-gaza-robi-damelin-intw-120601pseg1-cnni-world.cnn

Robi Damelin is such a role model.

Thank you. You are right, what an extraordinary role model she is.

EdithStourton · 08/12/2023 15:56

Fantasyanswer · 08/12/2023 14:17

Extraordinary video in which a Jewish student highlights the extent of antisemitism on campus at @MIT. Elite universities and their DEI bureaucracies have failed us This is posted by Ed Leon Klinger

https://twitter.com/edleonklinger/status/1732304339689967693

Its absolutely shocking.

Good Lord. And that is the backdrop to those university presidents being waffley and evasive to Congress the other day.

I know observant Jewish posters will be off electrical devices by now, but Shabbat shalom to all of you.

FannyCann · 08/12/2023 16:10

I've been lurking on this thread, so just placemarkjng in advance of a new thread.

Thank you OP and all the thoughtful and knowledgeable contributors here.

HagoftheNorth · 08/12/2023 16:14

As highlighted earlier, many of us were unaware of the depth of antisemitism in our communities until now. This made me think of the religious festivals which are recognised in schools now, not just Easter & Christmas, but also Eid and Diwali. Now I come to think of it, no Jewish festivals make it on to our school curriculum…..