Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

There were parts of the western world where Pro-Palestine rallies took place the day after the October 7th attacks were reported.

The first one here was on 23rd October.

To focus on solutions you need to be able to acknowledge, sincerely, the trauma and experience of each side. That was not done. The trauma of the Jewish victims was treated as a mere aside. It was minimised. And its minimisation is minimised. As is show so 'powerfully from @BabaBarrio rather than obsessing about the pathetic excuses of Hamas terrorists that have already met justice. What is the point in condemning dead men

Its hard to know how to respond to this quote. Its near psychopathic in its failure to understand how human relationships work. Its cold logic of 'well that's done now, no point going on about it.' The point @BabaBarrio, would have been to acknowledge to the families, the friends, the world, the horror that took place. To have taken time to stand alongside victims and their families in their trauma and pain, in support and solidarity. To show that there is no anti-semitism here and these victims are equal with all victims of male violence. That there is no ' 'context' that explains why these men did this. That you condemn those who say there is and who are saying it never happened.

Instead of saying' yeah well it was bad but its done now. Stop going on about it. I've moved on to something else now.'

It's really racism. Because the atrocities against women and children of Israel will be / are almost certainly repeated against the women and children in Palestine. Women there are seen as lesser, abortion is illegal, sexual abuse of women and children is legal within families (i.e. only a crime if it affects a man i.e. someone else doing it to that man's wife and children). I very much doubt that living in Palestine as a woman is any better than living in Iran, and no-one seems to care about that, people only seem to care if those women are killed by Israeli bombs not Hamas bombs or Hamas torture and denial of women's human rights.

If there is a unilateral Israeli ceasefire, that's a win for Hamas. Do we really want that region to be fully dominated by Hamas? By a regime in which women do not have human rights, cannot access abortion, where rape is legal?

There needs to be a negotiated settlement and as part of that ideally would be women's rights which would be much closer to those currently afforded in Israel than in Gaza.

The thing I find most ironic is women standing up to call for an Israeli full ceasefire. Women taking part in politics in this way is not allowed under Hamas rule. Do they realise they're supporting a regime in which they would not be allowed to do what they're doing, certainly not whilst wearing what they're wearing, quite possibly on pain of rape or death?

Of course everyone wants the bombing from both sides to stop but the protests are one sided pro-Palestine and this does mean, unless explicitly stated, anti women's rights. They're not pretending about it - Hamas quite clearly have a position that women are only there to serve men for procreation etc. That they are not worth as much as men and should not have full human rights. That's the Hamas position.

The level of anti-semitism we're seeing now really reminds me of what happened before World War II. When of course there were many left wing politicans in this country supporting Hitler. Jews must be terrified.

That's completely untrue. There was one in Glasgow on the 14th. One week after. The organisers must have started planning it almost immediately after the attacks. They must have hardly paused for breath upon hearing of the attacks. Utterly disgusting.

I think I wasn't clear. The reason I said it's racism because people, in their support for Hamas, are not ever talking about women's rights for Palestinian women which they currently don't have and seem entirely unlikely to ever get at this point. Supporting what Hamas and the men in the region want is not supporting these women.

i.e. why are these women less worthy of the rights women are embracing in this country when they stand up to support the current Palestinian regime (which is woman-hating Hamas) with their heads uncovered and their voices uncensored.

You’ve already got a poster on here denying it happened. Speaks volumes.

But I have acknowledged it. I have stood vigil. I have gone in solidarity for weeks after Oct 7th with Israel.

Your post is really aggressive, you are alleging that I am a psychopath if today, on 18 November, I am not calling for justice for the victims of 7th October, even though they already got their justice by their attackers being executed on 9th October.

You are saying I should only be feeling for families of the Jewish victims, still today on 18th November, otherwise it is minimising their suffering?

I am not allowed to feel anything for the over 11,000 dead Palestinians, over 6,000 of them children or to call for a ceasefire not yet, not now, because that is minimising the Jewish suffering to not still be focussed on October 7th?! On today 18th of November?

Yes I have moved on! How could I not move on! It is now at 10 dead Palestinian women for every dead Jewish woman…when can I show concern for Palestinians?

Apparently Nov 18th is too soon when would be ok for you for me and the world to acknowledge the suffering of Palestinian women and try to stop it then? When would I not be a psychopath? When 20,000 are dead? Or perhaps in 2024?

There was a march in Edinburgh on the 14th too, I walked through it by accident and while the majority of it felt appropriate (ie, ceasefire now) there were 'river to the sea' chants. And I only walked through the edges in a few minutes, sort of thing.

Personally I haven't made any comment on the situation because I cannot square my conscience and my beliefs with either side. I know that will make posters think 'oh aye, who gives a shiny shite Lavinia' but I only say things I believe to be true.

I believe it to be true that Israeli women were targeted for sexual violence and sexual crimes. I believe it to be true that this held the world's attention for approximately one day. I believe it to be true that western feminists have failed these women. I believe it to be true that women calling for a Palestinian state to be run on Islamic lines, without examining the role that Hamas will play in that future state, are turkeys voting for Christmas.

Im not in Glasgow, or Scotland, or your Hemisphere, but I am in a Western country.

I had presumed BabaBarrio is not in the UK. In which case a thread that is largely about UK feminist groups may not be as relevant to them.

I am not in the U.K. , but the article includes reference to “140 American feminists” which could be from where I am as I am in the Americas.

I do not think the trauma of either side is minimised.

War is wrong, war impacts women who bear the brunt of the aftermath more than men.

What Hamas did was disgusting and wrong - no ifs and buts for their actions. Wrong - end of.

Hamas is not Palestinian people - there are Palestinian women who fight everyday for better conditions for themselves who are not happy with their lot in life who want more for themselves and their children. They do not need to offer any apology about Hamas’ actions they did not cause it. T

There are plenty of grassroots organisations who are calling for peace and expressing the issues surrounding women and children as a result of the conflict. There are and were vigils held by organisations around the world it may not have been in the media but this does not mean it has not happened e.g women in black.

I may be wrong but your response reads as more sympathy for own side than the other that is my take and if that is wrong I send you my apologise.

We need a solution - where both sides can coexist and learn not to hate one another. The more kidnappings or indiscriminate bombing there are the less closer we get to that solution.

The comment about Red Cross and UN is a quote from the mother of a woman whose daughter was taken hostage:

'“It is unbelievable that groups like the Red Cross and UN Women are doing nothing to help our people,” Keren Sharf Shem, whose 21-year-old French-Israeli daughter Mia was kidnapped from the Nova music festival, tells me.'

No. You directly asked me a question and I posted about how protestors across the world turned their face away from Israel immediately after the attacks. So not about you or what you have done which is what you are now talking about.

Then in that context you replied with ' yeah the rapists are dead now, move on' does sound psychopathic in that conversation.

You have now turned the conversation all about you and what you have been doing and what you think today. And you are also accusing me of things I have not anywhere said.

Yes, and the journalist decided to print it without commenting on it being incorrect. That is spreading misinformation.

We know Israel lies - from the beheaded babies, to the first attack on a hospital

I'm sorry, but do you mean the Al-Ahli hospital? What do you mean by 'Israel lies' in this context?

I may be wrong but your response reads as more sympathy for own side than the other that is my take and if that is wrong I send you my apologise

I don't have a side. I'm not Jewish. I'm not Muslim.

I'm just disgusted by the responses I saw after the October 7th attacks. As I outlined above.

This poster is talking about the babies who were found with their heads detached from their bodies after the October 7th attacks. Its not possible to tell if they were deliberately beheaded or if their heads came off as side effect of the murderous attacks on them by Hamas.

Apparently this distinction matters to some.

I find it quite distasteful watching on TV lots and lots of men discussing how terrible it is that children have been killed whilst showing no real emotion and it's mostly men discussing this - no women. I'd quite like to hear from the women trying to protect their children in both countries and what they genuinely have to say. But no, we only hear from men.

And yes, when you're debating the precise method of baby murder (regardless of 'side') as if somehow it's justifiable if it's one method rather than another then you've definitely taken a moral wrong turn somewhere.

You should not generalise with statements like “protesters across the world turned away from Israel” and then accuse me of doing exactly what these other protesters did, calling me a psychopath, that was absolutely about me and what I had or had not done.

My post was more that today when we have ten dead Palestinian women for every dead Jewish woman, that might be why more people are now focussed on Gaza and stopping the number of dead Palestinian women from continuing at a rate of 100 more killed a day every day until a ceasefire. Stopping more women and children dying is a more immediate concern to people than grieving for the victims of the 7th. There will be time to grieve for everyone after a ceasefire when no more women and children are being killed.

The fact that the Hamas rapists are also dead was a side note as in that’s clearly evidence no one is thinking their rampage was at all acceptable because it’s not like they got away with it or anyone is upset they’ve been executed. I did not post it as a move on.

We are in the midst of a war, the urgency is about that now understandably. The outpouring of Palestinian support is not support for the attacks but support to stop the ongoing death and destruction as well as a recognition of the decades long occupation and oppression they have suffered. Yes there will be some extremists and silly teenagers all fired up (will have watched some videos on tiktok]

The attacks were disgusting and heartbreaking, there will be a reckoning afterwards, for Hamas/Israel lies and misinformation, war crimes and for Netanyahu and his policies re: settlements and the armys failure to protect the southern Kibbutzim (20 hours to reach some of them in a county the size of Ireland). The complacency of the Israeli government/army is astonishing.

Hamas are a bunch of death cult martyrs and are not the Palestinian people

I watched a very interesting discussion about this conflict - all men again, but there you are - where one of them said that one of the failures of western people - wherever their sympathies lie - is looking at it from a western point of view which is the preservation of individual human life at all costs.

The point they made is that the people who committed the Oct 7th attacks WANTED to die, that was their purpose. Kill Jews and then die a martyr. They said one of the failures made is assuming death is somehow a punishment whereas for many within Hamas, martyrdom is very much what they want. And that without understanding this fundamental point, any diplomacy is likely doomed to failure.

It was a bit of a lightbulb moment for me, I have to say.

They wanted to die in pursuit of a certain goal (destruction of all Jews) and they are absolutely certain of their reward in heaven. They said that killing them is not a punishment, it is a reward.

Interesting and it seems to make sense.

Is this why Hamas clearly don’t give a shit about the plight of the Palestinians? They didn’t care about the inevitable consequences of the 7th October attack on the ordinary Palestinians, because they rationalise the huge death toll as hunky-dory because they all get to go to Paradise?

Aren't Hamas actually the democratically elected government of Palestine though?

That's a very interesting point about martyrdom, @pronounsbundlebundle .