Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 7

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

J asking c the RG cancelled conf

DD: Prof Sims didn't know he was coming to speak at conf. It was a surprise. People going to speak weren't disclosed to him. We probably would have told him closer to the time. Part of a gift for him. He did know it was in honour of him

[If this was such a great present for Prof Sims, to cancel the whole thing because someone pulled out seems extraordinary]

J: SIms' view was no conf should be cancelled

DD: Yes

J: So why weren't his views given priority as it was in honour of him?

DD: Don't know David Scott a big boy did it and ran away did the cancelling.

If I were due to be facing BC, I would be pleading with the two sides to settle out of court without me. If I actually faced him, I'd probably crumble:

BC: Can you confirm your name, please?
Me: Um, I don't know. Can you tell me what is it? Anything you say. Please make this quick.

At some point, if I ever finish, I'm going to have a do a viva for my PhD. It will be awful.

Steve Tombs - 2nd throw under the bus

?Why cancel?

DD: we were imagining ourselves putting a lot of effort into a conf we didn't want to be at.

Here we go, amnesia again

musta!

DD- Steve Tombs didn't know anything about prisons.

We didn’t want any GC views.

So, when she likened linked Jo's beliefs to racism, what this before or after Maya's 2nd case?

It was the day after the judgment was handed down.

J: Who were the 1-2 people in HERC who opposed it

DD: [doesn't want to answer] Not sure. CW and LD, but I might be wrong.

Why would it be reputational damage if they only pulled it as the subject matter had changed in their view?

'2nd did the conference have to be pulled quickly' - because we didn't want people to know why we did this.

The judge is asking really good questions.

J- Why did conf have to be cancelled quickly?
DD- because the longer it was advertised the greater the reputational damage.

Slam dunk Ben

And DD seems to think she actually has to answer them. Even though she doesn't want to give the details, she then does.

If that would make Ben rub my ears and say "Who's a good girl? You are! You are! Yes, you are!", then I would be prepared to step into the witness box . . . 😁

J: q c STimes. Sentence c exhorting pronouns. You said 2 people were offended by that. Were those Boukli and Downes

DD: Yes I believe so. [Believe? They either were or weren't.]

Emotional - yes! 😂

J- The two people who were offended by the pronouns ref in the open letter were Drs Boukli and Downes?
DD -Yes

So terfy views then.

Drake - I don't know anything. Don't blame me.

Judge - when did you understand that sex was an immutable characteristic?

Excellent question

J: When first knew c JP GC views

DD: Developed over time. Started around time of conf. JP had views c how she saw women's rights and t people [Is this the first mention of women's rights???]

DD: Didn't understand c views eg sex immutable till late 2021. Didn't understand that dimension fully

DD’s voice does an uptick when she’s on dodgy grounds, like a previous witness (LW?)

I think DD would be quite happy to pony up all GC names