Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 3

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

You may attend in person or remote viewing has been quite limited but you can request log in details from

Email [email protected]

Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Still not answering the question....

BC moving on as I think he feels he's shown how batshit this is

When we see "training" we know they mean "indoctrination".

My training? You train dogs
Adult human beings deserve Education.

Although Educate Yourself is an insult from these people.

BC knows the judge has got the point.

It's all just the normal pseudo intellectual waffle.

Judge asking whether downes finds it objectionable for GC to express that sex and gender are different.

Downes finds it a difficult subject. Sex isn't a natural or nature blank slate, but gender is also shaping sex, so the idea that they can be separated....

Judge - but its not just that... GC position that sex more important than gender, you've not answered that

LD - Because its a difficult question. Goes on about legal sex, not just biological sex etc etc

Witness - keeps going.

LD: GC is a fixed idea not allowing for debate

The Judge is wondering whether she is in the legal profession or is now teaching pre-schoolers.

Judge: Let me ask you this really basic, easily comprehensible question
DD: It's really tricky / it's a really difficult question.

Rest of the world: No it's fucking not! Mammals have only had two sexes - which matter for lots of things including reproduction, harm and death - for millions of years! It is important to be able to describe this. Yes, delusional people may wish to deny it but they should not have the right to force that on anyone else!

Bit fed up with the baseline of science denial going on in the OU. Flat earth next?

There's no point trying to redo Forstater. The view is protected, whatever she thinks.

Ben - trying to keep his incredulity in check here.

The Judge and panel will never ever unsee this thinking for the rest of their lives.

This witness really has a hard time listening to the question and answering it as asked, and not veering off into speeches.

LD tries for another quasi-academic spiel.

BC: I'm not going to be focusing on your thoughts, but on your actions - what you were trying to do to other people.

Bingo! Does not remember (something incriminating)

Some guidance that was circulated around the dept.

I wonder who made that guidance????

That up talking is annoying

How old is this witness? They sounds like a child. A very arrogant child. Did anyone catch JM's bit at the beginning which I think was correcting a typo to the date of birth?

Edited for pronouns.

I can't quite believe how empty the GI side is - these are fully paid up academic staff! Did Stonewall scoop out their brains during a training session?!

They never expected to be challenged over this, were they?

Is anyone else profoundly irritated that this isn't being openly live-streamed and recordings made available so that we can all understand the seismic shifts in culture, freedom, and thought that are prerequisites to embracing (gender) identity in a pluralistic society?

Witness - she seriously has no idea how she comes across

I can't believe this steaming pile of shit is being paid for by UK taxes. It simply shouldn't be. The GI level of debate is arrested at a toddler level of discourse with some fancy words inserted.

That's what happens when you are never asked to question yourself.

I can't really explain it... I haven't got the words....<does the rest of the song and dance from Billy Elliot>

This is what happens when you outsource your thinking. Although really what she is trying to do is explain that she believes that the needs of special men should be met at the expense of everyone else and women in particular, because she's been told that's right and good, and she's trying to use the fig leaf wafflebollox she was given at the time to sell her the idea. Which never stood up in the first place if you had half a brain and the capacity for critical thought.

It is depressing how thick these academics are!