Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 3

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

So DD studies male prisoners in female prisons but is totally unable to take an objective view on it or consider the impact on women at all?

Oh dear, ms woke is meeting the legal profession. And Ben!

Why doesn't Dr Downes offer to go and live in a cell next to Barbie Kardashian / Katie Dolatowski, Isla Bryson for a couple of weeks to demonstrate the lack of impact on women.

No?

It sounds like (from the reporting here and TT) that the Judge started off wanting to be all nice and "inclusive" and is well and truly peaking minute by minute.

BC asking a question if a GC person cannot say a person has a male body regardless of their gender identity, then a GC person cannot express their GC views. LD going back to saying it's a denial of who that person is. BC politely trying to explain reality.

Honestly, I'd be asking for a refund from the OU if I was studying there at this point.

They're all like toddlers who just say 'no' to everything.

That is certainly my impression.

OK we are having the nuts and bolts of the whole debate out loud

Yes!

This is brilliant. Just brilliant.

😂😂😂

Downes taking a long moment to think about the logical dead end Ben has taken Downes down

As with my upthread (possibly earlier thread) experience, resilience is necessary education for those of us who are dealing with Sacred Castes and those who self declare rejection (sensitivity) dysphoria while (metaphorically) trampling over others using another part of their identities.

Now the Judge is intervening.

Judge now having a go at getting an answer from LD!

Judge intervening, very kindly.

This is absolutely glorious. We are watching someone actually have to argue their GI view, in a situation where they can't just throw their toys out of the pram and call bigot.

This is delightful torture being a bystander here, looking at the remarks coming in.

The result of a survey showed a lot of people did not know what sex a transwomen has, they think they are born women.

So it is necessary to be clear by using the phrase male bodied.

I think the Judge is genuinely trying to understand what on earth this witness thinks

Oh judge jumps in with a big sigh. Ooh, 'my training'. What is the witness talking about?

I am about to go into an in person meeting and so am missing all this - please keep reporting!

DD saying this is a very difficult question when asked to explain what she believes. Something about us being empty vessels that can be filled

Judge asks on the separation of sex v gender showing an understanding of the two positions:

LD "It's a very difficult question!"

J: The prioritisation of sex over gender. Not answered.

LD: It's a very difficult q. It's complicated [house]

I am none the wiser after this explanation to the judge.